If reasonable genealogists disagree on circumstantial evidence, do you disconnect the parents or mark them as Uncertain?

+34 votes
2.0k views
 
This is a tough, conflict-prone topic. I think it's the heart of the issue started at "Should we change the WikiTree policy on disputed parents?"
 
I am going to attempt an answer, and hopefully move us toward a clear rule.
 
Of course, even if the rule is clear, applying it will always be exceedingly difficult. Determining parents is the central challenge of genealogy, right? :-)
in Policy and Style by Chris Whitten G2G Astronaut (1.5m points)

14 Answers

+17 votes
 
Best answer
I think not. You shouldn't disconnect the parents if there's a reasonable disagreement about them.
 
Before last week my answer might be different. Now that we have the Uncertain status for mothers and fathers, uncertain parents can and should stay connected in the database fields.
 
When Jillaine Smith (who's one of all-time favorite WikiTreers, by the way) posted her reasons for changing the policy on disputed parents, she wasn't fully aware of how we're implementing the new relationship status feature.
 
Jillaine's point #3, that disputed parentage "reduces the quality and reliability of the Relationship Finder" doesn't apply as of a few days ago. We now highlight when a relationship is uncertain on the Relationship Finder. Right now it's just in the relationship paths to the common ancestor but soon we'll make clear that if one link in the chain is uncertain the entire relationship is uncertain.
 
I think part of Jillaine's point #2 is also mitigated by the application of the Uncertain relationship status. Having this relationship status in the database -- and using it -- is really significant for our entire mission, I think. It gives us the opportunity to keep the best-known connections on the tree but highlight that they're questionable. I think this will help us keep the connections improving and growing.
 
Jillaine's point #1 gets to how we decide when conclusions are reasonable.  This is where I think we really have our work cut out for us. What makes a relationship Uncertain, or less than Uncertain?
 
I think the basic answer belongs on this "Uncertain" help page and we need additional pages that explain key terminology, show examples for specific projects, etc. Peter has already made great strides in this area. I think we should encourage him and others in the community to continue on this, talking through tough questions on G2G as necessary.
 
By the way, I do think it's important that any project-specific style and help pages remain consistent with the general rules. I spun this question off as "Do projects have different styles and standards than the rest of WikiTree?"
by Chris Whitten G2G Astronaut (1.5m points)
selected by Carole Partridge
SW,

While it might sound that way, I guess that anyone who comes to make a change should provide evidence of the need for that change. That includes attaching parents or detaching them.

I also don't think it's either/or.

I think the original profile creator or other profile managers also have the burden of proof. When I come across unsourced profiles, I add the {{Unsourced}} template. In some cases, I'll place a message on the profile asking "What's the evidence for....?"

The question being asked in this particular g2g post, though, is what do we do when reasonable people disagree about circumstantial evidence?
Jillaine, to be fair, you were not responding to the subject of this g2g, you were responding to my hypothetical. And my hypothetical was just an unresolved point that caused quite a stir in your post that started this one....  

And I would agree with S. While how you suggest to handle it may be polite, etc., the simple point is that a genealogy conclusion behind a connection can fail on it's own and doesn't need to be disproved. To ask to disprove a conclusion is removing the burden from the conclusion getting challenged.

Maybe this is a case where genealogy standards aren't nice enough or polite enought, etc.

Anyway, S, thanks for noting the contradiction. Many people did in Jillaine's earlier post, too, but it was ignored in this follow-up that was supposed to answer the difficult question.

We've proabably beaten this horse enough?

Jillaine - I apprectiate you being a sounding board today on this.
Peter,

Just wanted to add that it would be great if you'd start a separate thread about resolving contradictions you see between Help pages and Style pages.

I don't think most people distinguish them the way you do (Help=rule; Style=suggestions) and I've frequently seen style pages show up on Help index pages.

But in any case, if there are pages that contradict each other, we should deal with them on a case by case basis.

Thanks.
Peter, Jillaine, S., and Darlene,

I apologize for my absence from this discussion. It takes me a long time to think through things and I've been consumed with other matters. But this is important.

I spent all day today thinking and writing on this. I've got a draft of a policy page. It should be ready to show you tomorrow.

Chris
Clank .. clank ... clank ...
 
That's was the sound of me donning my armor.
 
OK, now I'm ready. I've spent many hours reading the opinions expressed here and elsewhere, thinking over the issues, and drafting and re-drafting a policy. Here is my current draft: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Uncertain_new
 
I hope you'll read the whole page, with a wholly open mind. :-)
 
If you did, please:
 
* If you think an answer is unclear, incomplete, or see a minor error, post here or e-mail me.
 
* If you think an additional question and answer should be added, post your suggested question here.
 
* If you disagree with an answer, let's start a new G2G Q&A for it. I suggest posting the question as the G2G question, e.g. "What is the standard for adding uncertain information?" Put my draft of the answer as the explanation. Post your answer. Then link to the new G2G question from here so we'll all see it.
 
By the way, I also added this new, related policy draft: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Research_Before_Editing -- I don't think that one will be controversial.
 
Onward and upward, for the single family tree,
 
Chris

Chris,

Many thanks for your thoughtful post and new policy drafts.  I am still digesting them. 

Two thoughts that comes to my mind in reading Research Before Editing are:

  • Based on this, it appears that GEDCOMs should no longer be imported, which I would agree with whole-heartedly
  • Should this be called "Research before Creating OR Editing Profiles"?

I'll continue to read the two documents and provide more comments/questions.

Thanks,

Sharon

Still reading, but one thing that jumped out at me is:  "..., we wouldn't ever want to enter incorrect or disproven facts".  I think that's misleading. I'd prefer it say 'information' as oposed to 'facts'.  Most people consider facts to be factual (kind of makes sense, eh?!).  wink  But 'facts' aren't always true.  Gets kind of confusing, so I personally think you should use a different word.  Of course, this is only MY humble opinion...  smiley

Thanks, Darlene. I made that fix.

That was easy. :-)
Hi S.,

Regarding GEDCOMs, we do require that imported profiles have sources, but that's not easy to enforce. Also, there are higher standards for importing early profiles.

Regarding "editing" vs. "creating or editing", I sometimes use "editing" to include any contributions or changes, including profile creation. I don't know if that's confusing on that page. I could add a sentence inside the text if so.

Chris
+10 votes
Here are my suggest rules:

1. There must be be some reasonable evidence-based argument to support the parentage.

2. If there is evidence for and against parentage, the balance of the evidence must be in favor of parentage or, at a minimum, equally for and against.

3. If there are multiple possible parents that meet the standard in #2, the most probable parent should be chosen.

4. If the parentage is not reasonably certain (note - does not have to be absolutely certain), mark it uncertain.
by Chase Ashley G2G6 Pilot (312k points)
edited by Chase Ashley
I think this is a good pithy attempt, but I have a concern with 3. Surely if there are reasonable grounds to name more than one possible scenario, then we have reasonable grounds for saying there is no good confidence in any specific scenario. (I accept there will be cases where there is an obvious leading hypothesis, but I think you can not make this the basis of a general rule.)
Andrew - You are correct that under my proposed rules the standard for linking parentage is less than having good confidence that the particular parentage selected is the correct one. Per my proposed rules, if you had two alternative plausible parents, both supported by some reasonable evidence, you pick the one you think is more likely even if the evidence is not sufficient to give you good confidence that it is correct, and mark the parentage as Uncertain. The narrative bio should then discuss both possible parentages, the evidence for and against each, and the reasons for picking A over B.
OK, so I understand it correctly, and then what I am saying is that think rule 3 will lead to problems. It will only work in cases where the is a clear leading proposal, but you are not stating that.
If only one person is actively working on the profile (about 95+% of all wikitree profiles in my experience), they should always be able to pick one. Quite true that we would need a new rule/procedure in those rare cases where multiple people actively working on a profile and they disagreed as to who the most probable parent was.
Yes but I am saying they should not do this. It is not good genealogy to pick a winner in a case where all options are uncertain. It gives a misleading impression. If there are several options that are all similarly uncertain, we should not pick a winner. Example: Vaux-21. I recently disconnected this from its parents. I could have picked my favourite option, but I know that there are several reasonable ones, and only small arguments favouring one or another.
+9 votes

Ok, I'm not necessarily sure this is a good example but here is an example.

On Wikitree we have a profile for Counegunda Reiter formerly Hessen-Kassel, the daughter of Charles I Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel (in German Karl I, Landgraf von Hessen-Kassel) and his wife Marie Amalie (or Amalia Maria) von Kurland or Courland.  Counegunda ran off with one of her father's personal bodyguard, Conrad Reiter and she was banished from the family.  They were the parents of Conrad Caspar Reiter, who through his daughter was the ancestor of the Hoffmann family who settled in Pennsylvania. (I was going to give the link to Countegunda's profile, but I'm not the profile manager and there is no more on the biography than I have listed)

What is there to support this information?
Mostly online family trees, geni, myheritage, ancestry.com where she is found under Counegunda or Cunnegunda.  There is one here http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/o/f/Karl-T-Hoffmann/GENE2-0004.html another here http://ec2-23-23-126-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com/genealogy/Kettler-Descendants-47  None that I could see give any sources.  I did have a quick look to see if there might be a printed genealogy of the Hoffmann family that mentioned her, but couldn't find anything but as I said it was fairly quick.

From the Uncertain page that Chris has linked to, we know that those types of sources are not discounted altogether but do make the relationship of Counegunda and her parents uncertain.

What is there against the relationship?
Firstly the dates that Counegunda is given, born before 1675, married 1690, died about 1785 are obviously a bit strange, particularly as her son is supposedly born in 1785.  Also the most accepted version of her name should be Kunigunde or Cunigunde, but both of those details don't necessarily prove against the relationship, though perhaps somewhere there is a missing generation?

Charles and his wife Marie Amalie, had 17 children, and you will find the dates of birth in Charles' Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Landgrave_of_Hesse-Kassel and this information is backed up by the same details in L'Allemagne Dynastique, volume 1, by Michel Huberty, Alain Giraud & F & B Magdelaine, published 1976.  Although this is a secondary source, it is one of the most well-researched publications about the modern German royal families around and is extremely well respected and I have no reason to doubt it.

I can't see that Charles and Marie Amalie's marriage date is in the Wikipedia article but according to L'Allemagne Dynastique is was on 21 May 1673.  So Counegunda isn't listed amongst their children,and it would certainly be impossible for her to be their child and born in 1675 or earlier.  The earliest another child might have been born in that family is 1683,and although she was banished is seems a bit far-fetched to think she could have been completely expunged from the family records.

But could she have been Charles, illegitimate daughter?  Neither the Wikipedia article or L'Allemagne Dynastique, mention illegitimate children, and he was obviously devoted to his wife!!  But at this stage I don't have any proof she wasn't.

So what decisions do we make about Charles and Marie Amalie being the parents of Counegunda.

I think the chances of Marie Amalie being her mother are extremely slight and that relationship could be broken.

All my experience and instincts are saying that Karl isn't her father, but do I have the proof?  Should it be marked as 'Uncertain' and her Last Name at Birth (LNAB) kept as Hessen-Kassel or should that relationship also be broken and her named changed to Unknown?

 

 

 

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (618k points)
John, I think this is a good example. ALthough in this case, there isn't even much circumstantial evidence.

I, for one, would not consider the presence in online family trees even circumstantial. I think the bar, even for circumstantial, has to be higher than that.

Another good example, and frankly, the one that spurred this series of threads is here:

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/18243/what-is-the-proof-that-ambrose-was-son-of-nathaniel-fish-

One piece of circumstantial evidence in particular-- language in a court record-- was interpreted differently by at least two experienced genealogists. Additional circumstantial evidence was also weighed differently by each.
John, the relationship should be broken and name changed to Unknown.  Information you've provided should be included in the biographical section.  I expect Wikitree to have higher standards than ancestry.com.  Otherwise it's no better, and what's the point?

As for Jillaine, I unfortunately don't have time to read through all of the postings and analyze the data.  Good luck with that one!

This is an interesting example, John. It is a good situation for me to try to articluate a point I have been trying to make.

I would start by saying you are challenging/disputing several genealogical conclusions behind these connections.

If Counegunda was born before 1675 and she had her son in 1785, this would be a good conclusion to dispute. Who can support the conclusion that Counegunda had her son at age 110?

After that conclusion can't be supported, that conclusion should be rejected and the connection that it supports should be removed.  

A mistake in our dispute process seems to be happening where we want to shift the burden of proof away from the conclusion that is getting challenged to some alternate possibility the disputer must provide. To suggest that you, the person who raised the dispute, need to provide documented proof to 'disprove' the conclusion that Counegunda had a child at 110 removes the burden of proof from the conclusion that is getting challenged. This simply isn't how genealogy works - see Genealogy Standards, etc..

I've raised this point both privately and publicly a handful of times, and it was the caveat I raised with Chris earlier in this thread, but it doesn't seem we want to acknowledge it or discuss how our dispute policy should be more in line with standards. In Jillaine's post that lead to this one, when my question "should we keep speculative parents with no proof until there is proof to disprove them?" was answered "yes," it highlights that folks think the burden of proof should not be on the conclusion behind the connection that is under dispute and how far the "WikiTree Way" may be from standards.  

It is also worth noting that the 'Help' pages are policy. These are rules. The 'style and standards' pages are more like suggestions.

So marking Counegunda's connection to her son 'uncertain', citing the online family tree or some other 'uncertain' source seems to be okay per policy/rules. That our Pre-1700 Quiz would call that same family tree insufficient and unreliable would appear to just be a suggestion. And if you disputed the conclusion behind Counegunda's connection, it may come down to whether or not you can disprove it.

The conlcusion in Counegunda's example that I suggested challenging may be so far fetched that we couldn't call the genealogist supporting the conclusion reasonable.

We have thousands of other cases where folks certainly would call themselves reasonable, though.

We have many thousands of similar examples with colonial immigrants. We know proving who an immigrant was in Europe before they emigrated is a huge genealogical challenge. We also know there are only about 250 that have proven royal lines. On Ancestry and on WikiTree, there is an incredilbe ability to not only prove who the immigrant was in Europe before the emigrated, but also to find their royal lines. 250 in the real world, thousands and thousands here.

And with over 400 of these questionable colonial immigrants in the Leaders' trees alone, this isn't just a problem with a couple bad apples creating junk.

If these are disputed, is the burden of proof in these disputes not on the conclusion that is getting challenged? Is it up to the disputer to create some alternate possiblilty or somehow disprove what has never been proven in the first place?

And should our 'uncertain' rules contradict our 'Pre-1700' suggestions in order to keep more connections?

Peter, could you start a separate thread that examines the conflict between the "uncertain" rules and the "pre-1700" suggestions?
+7 votes
Leaving aside questions of proof standards, there are two different technical scenarios here.

Case A is where John and Mary Piggles indisputably had a son called Henry, and nobody knows what became of him.  But a Henry Piggles turned up in Henrico County, and is "believed to be" ("widely believed" if you like) the same person.

In this case there are potentially two profiles, one for the child, of certain parentage, and one for the adult.  Question is, should they be merged.  There's no way of showing an uncertain merge.  The only way to do anything with the adult Henry, apart from nothing, is to attach uncertain parents.  But then it looks like John and Mary definitely had one son called Henry and may have had another.

That doesn't seem right, so the tendency would be to merge, but that doesn't seem right either.

Case B would be where Henry of Henrico is believed to be the son of John and Mary, but if that case falls apart tomorrow, there'll be nothing to suggest that John and Mary ever had a son called Henry.  This is simpler, but of course the case for the parentage is intrinsically weaker.
by Living Horace G2G6 Pilot (632k points)
Isn't the point of the "Unmerged Match" (with a good explantion) to deal with situations just like this? They might be the same, but insufficient proof exists to confirm it.
Can't see anything that says an Unmerged Match is supposed to be used for an uncertain match, though many people do.  Sometimes I do myself.

It says it's for an agreed match that's not ready to be completed yet.  Admittedly it works badly for that purpose, because it discards the approvals obtained and makes you start the approval process again later.

There's a thread called "An unmerged match is a temporary state".
Maybe indeed there should be a more clear policy on this type of thing also. But to note a complication: we often see individuals where we only have say 5 or 6 primary records, and where it is actually possible that we are dealing 5 or 6 individuals.
+7 votes
I'm still trying to get my head around this. Chris, are you saying that even if Robert Charles Anderson has indicated that his review of all the sources reveals no known parents for a given puritan great migration person profiled on wikitree, that we should keep the link to the previously claimed parents?

i.e., that someone could come along, reconnect unproven parents, and it would be okay as long as they marked those parents "uncertain"?
by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (907k points)
I would define that scenario as 'less than uncertain'.  That means there's no proof, which means they shouldn't be connected.  Parents shouldn't be connected without a reliable source for it.  But this is off topic from Chris's original question, which deals with circumstantial evidence.  When there's NO evidence, they shouldn't be connected.
Thanks Darlene. While I concur with you, and sometimes Anderson is making this claim in the abence of any evidence, it's often the case that Anderson is responding to someone's earlier interprtation of "circumstantial evidence"-- for example, he'll make reference to a published claim from the 1800s, or to someone else's reference to some sort of source, and conclude "the evidence doesn't support such a marriage." Or that the proof is lacking. I.e., HE's making a judgement call on someone else's interpretation of circumsntatial evidence.

The PGM project defaults to Anderson's expertise. We trust his interpretation.

I'd have a very difficult time if someone were to come along and reconnect relations that Anderson had disputed because they choose to believe the late 19th century genealogy over an expert's analysis.
So would I...
Jillaine and Darlene,

I'm still trying to get my head around this too!

There are still questions to be worked out. However, I do think I have an answer here and I'm sorry to say it's not the same as yours. :-)

Uncertain sources are OK on WikiTree. We do not prohibit secondary and uncertain sources. We do not require that all connections be proven.

We can and should say that uncertain mothers and fathers should be marked as Uncertain, and that the Disputed Origins sections that you innovated should be used.

The arguments for and against a connection should be explained. However, Uncertain connections should not be broken. Allowing them to remain is why we created the Uncertain indicator for mothers and fathers.

This is not the same as saying we should encourage people to create hundreds of profiles with uncertain sources. That is not OK.

I will explain this more elsewhere, but the basic rationale for allowing uncertain sources here is that WikiTree is designed for genealogy collaboration. We want to encourage genealogists to say what they think they know and why they think they know it. We want this to be part of a process that moves genealogy forward. This is what WikiTree is about. It's not just about publishing proven genealogy.
Does this mean that the PGM project needs to reverse its policy?

I agree with Chris in the general sense, but with Jillaine in this specific sense. I'm all in favour of the uncertain indicator for parents, and using it for parent-child connections that haven't been proven or disproven.

However, I can relate to Jillaine's experiences with the PGM Project. The Acadians Project has the same issue. Many immigrant ancestors have had spurious parents attached to them, which can be found in thousands of online trees and in many cases published books as well, but there is no actual evidence to support the connection. (Presumably some were originally connected based on a shared last name and wishful thinking. In many cases there's no evidence even for the existence of the supposed parents, let alone the connection.)

As an example, the parents of my ancestor, Michel Richard, are not known, but that doesn't stop everyone from saying they were Andre Richard and Michelle Paulin. I have no idea where those names even came from. We've had to disconnect them countless times. I would not be happy to see people reconnecting them again and be supported in that because they saw it on an online family tree.

TLDR: I support the new uncertain parents concept as long as we can also say "we have looked into this possibility and there is no evidence for it, so it is being permanently disconnected." That would allow projects like Acadians, PGM, and probably many others to continue disconnecting the spurious lines we work so hard to keep off of WikiTree.

Lianne (and Jillaine),

Even if you've already done so, I hope you'll try to clear the slate and reconsider the pros and cons of having something like this example, i.e. Andre Richard and Michelle Paulin being connected as Uncertain parents of Michel Richard. We know there are costs and there are things you won't like about it. But we also know there would be benefits and things that would be good about it (see the draft policy page). The potential benefits would at least mitigate the costs. Would they mitigate them enough that you'd still want to participate on WikiTree?

Chris
Oh, nothing would stop me participating on WikiTree. :)

If Andre Richard and Michelle Paulin were people that we clearly actually existed and lived near Michel Richard, or something like that, then maybe I wouldn't have such a big problem with it. But as it is there is absolutely zero connection outside of fanciful genealogy. Not a single tentative source. This isn't a connection that collaboration will lead to proving.

It's not just the connection itself; it's WikiTree's image. Among Acadian genealogists, a tree won't be taken as seriously if it has these fanciful parent connections in it.

I just want to reiterate that I do agree with this policy overall. There are cases when I can see myself adding uncertain parent-child connections. But I think we need to be able to remove information when it goes from uncertain to very nearly disproven.

You've probably considered these potential benefits, but in case not:

  • DNA may definitively disprove the connection. If you don't postulate the connection, the testable descendants will not be visible through our DNA connection system.
  • You wouldn't have to keep repeatedly removing the two uncertain parents.
  • More distant relatives would find the profiles on Google.
  • More duplicates would be caught through internal matching.
The first, as I'm sure you know, is the most important one to me. I think it's important for the future of WikiTree and the future of genealogy.
 
And, by the way, "very nearly disproven" would probably meet the standard I had in mind for removing uncertain information without replacing it.
In many of these cases, DNA couldn't disprove it, because there are no other lines to compare to. Eg. in Michel's case he is the only supposed child of his supposed parents.

Another good example is the Landry family. Two Landry siblings, with a Jean Claude living in between them, led someone to jump to the conclusion that Jean Claude's name was actually Jean Claude Landry and he must be the siblings' father. Any good genealogist would see that as an absurd logical leap. Does the policy allow that connection to be removed? (Maybe we could just clarify the section on removing uncertain information?) This is another case that can't be disproved with DNA because we already know the siblings are siblings; it's just who their parents are that is unknown.

I acknowledge the other benefits you list. They are good benefits; I just don't feel that they outweight the downside of having really really bad genealogy connected in the data fields.
Lianne, maybe you could go ahead and post "What is the standard for removing uncertain information without replacing it?" as a new G2G question, show my draft answer, and then give your draft answer.
Regarding the possibilities of DNA testing: Even if the parents had no other descendants, the parents had ancestors. The ancestors may have had other descendants. It's possible another descendant is carrying the same Y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA. It's hard to know this. It's what makes our DNA connections and DNA descendants views so useful.

"Regarding the possibilities of DNA testing: Even if the parents had no other descendants, the parents had ancestors."

Not if they didn't exist. :)

I'm on major homework deadlines at the moment but as soon as I have the time I will write up a G2G post (unless Jillaine or someone else beats me to it).

+11 votes

First off, THANK YOU for the time you're devoting to try to address this challenge, Chris. I know how busy you are, and I appreciate that you're investing the time in this. That said, Chris, I have MANY problems with this new draft policy.

"Never enter information on WikiTree, even uncertain information, without including your source."

This implies that any information on a profile that does not have a source should be removed. Is that what you intended?

"What are examples of uncertain sources?"

You've now switched from "uncertain information" to "uncertain sources". This is REALLY problematic. It introduces a new concept not currently present in genealogical research circles. There is sufficient confusion already about types of sources; you're making it worse by creating a new category: "uncertain sources" Sources are either ORIGINAL or DERIVATIVE. Please, please, please do not make matters worse by introducing a new concept "uncertain sources".

"Here are some sources that should be considered uncertain:..."

The sources you list are DERIVATIVE sources, not "uncertain".

"Here are examples of reliable sources:"

Again, you're now introducing a new term: "reliable sources". PLEASE do not make it even more confusing for people. We need to be encouraging people to use existing standards for these terms, not creating new ones.

"WikiTree is designed for genealogy collaboration, not just genealogy publishing."

Whether you intend this or not, this conveys that wikitree values "uncertain" research as much as it does published research that has demonstrated serious evidence analysis. IF YOU GO THIS ROUTE, you will lose qualified genealogists. You will make wikitree an unreliable place to go. You will make wikitree no better than "unsourced family trees" on ancestry.com.

"Adding unproven genealogy and trying to prove or disprove it is part of the improvement process."

But then, what do we do once "proven"? Your text earlier, above, implies that proven, published genealogy shouldn't be the standard here. At least, that's how I'm reading what you've written.

"To encourage collaboration, we want members to say what they think they know and why they think they know it. Then we can discuss the validity of the sources."

I'd like to think that projects like PGM are doing this very thing. But as I read the rest of your policy, you're giving "uncertain" parents as much weight as you're giving the analysis of experts such as Robert Charles Anderson.

"It's true that in many cases there is no ongoing research. Sometimes all the available sources have been recorded and fully examined by good genealogists and no reliable conclusions can be made. However, additional evidence may be discovered, even for very early ancestors."

This implies that even if Robert Charles Anderson has provided pretty much "the final word," that it's still okay to attach parents that he's concluded are not proven, because hey, maybe there's something else out there that might disprove Anderson. Is that really what you intend?

"If, however, you estimate a birth date, use Smith as the last name and mark it as Uncertain, and enter John Smith as her father and enter him as Uncertain, you're much more likely to find possible matches. (Note that our search tools don't currently use relationships as a matching factor but they will someday soon.) [and the later stuff about Cousin Bait...] "

So we should retain shoddy connections so that the search engine works? And we should keep "uncertain connections" so that people who believe they have ancestors who have been disproven by serious researchers will still find the wikitree profiles? You say the following, but it seems to contradict what you just said. At a minimum, I'm totally confused...

"To be clear, we wouldn't ever want to enter incorrect or disproven facts in our database fields just to attract distant cousins who may be searching for it. This would destroy the integrity of our database. Database fields need to be used according to set standards, i.e. only uncertain information should be marked as Uncertain... "

You then write:

"Generally speaking, any Wiki Genealogist can enter any uncertain information that they believe might be true. It just needs to be marked as Uncertain, sourced, and explained, as described at the top of this page."

This implies that someone can come to a PGM profile, attach uncertain parents, despite what Anderson has published. PGM volunteers have spent HOURS and HOURS and HOURS trying to improve the profiles of these old ancestors. The above implies that someone can come along and attach "uncertain" parents, and be supported by policy, after much time and attention has been paid to DETACHING unproven parents.

"There is a "preponderance of evidence" standard for replacing the data in name, date, and relationship fields. If there is more evidence for one set of facts over another, the information should be replaced. "

The organization that certifies genealogists gave up on "preponderance of evidence" decades ago. See http://www.bcgcertification.org/resources/prepond.html. If wikitree insists on using this phrase, it is moving away from quality genealogical research, and will be considered by anyone doing serious genealogical research to be bogus and not worth the time invested.

"Even though it can lead to conflicts, please improve upon information when you can. Resolving conflicting information is the height of genealogy collaboration on WikiTree. It's what our community is all about. Remember that the other member has also signed the Honor Code that says, among other relevant points..."

While this sounds really good, and I would concur with it, it seems totally contradictory to the rest of what you've posted.

"You should not remove uncertain information added by another member unless it's almost-certainly incorrect or other facts are more likely. Believing that it's more likely to be incorrect than correct is not enough unless there is better information."

This is what analysis of evidence is all about. Sometimes such analysis concludes "it's more likely to be incorrect". This includes research conclusions published by Anderson. But you're saying that such would be insufficient to detach "likely to be incorrect" parents.

Unless I am totally mis-interpreting what you've written, Chris, what you're proposing is a HUGE deterrent to my continued participation at Wikitree.

by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (907k points)
BRAVO....couldn't have said it better....

Chirs, I like the Uncertain stauts indicator. It will suffice in *most* cases, in which prior imports have introducced spotty data and connections.

I would like to see a line of text in there that says that it is NOT the default data status setting on profile creation. I was wondering about that as I was first reading through the page, and I only found the answer buried here in G2G.

Jillaine has made excellent points above, which need to addressed in the document.

For her special cases, in which parents have been *proven unlikely* by Anderson, et. al, the Uncertain status does not fit. It is actually misleading, or just plain wrong, in some cases.

If such *proven unlikely* parents are to remain attached in the tree, then I propose as a potential solution the creation of another status indciator, named discounted, which might display in bold or red text.

That would show that the *final* research really has been done, and will be useful for dealing with source trees that keep popping up the same bogus parents who are utter balderdash. And it would allow you to keep on target with your DNA goals.

It could maybe have one of those little pop-up question marks next to it, that says, "see the bio for details."

Chris

Although DNA analysis may solve some uncertain issues in regards to parents and other family relationships, as the recent investigations into the DNA of Richard III reveal, there can be differences in DNA and it can be impossible to actually tell where the 'difference' entered the line.  And as the article below states there aren't many more avenues to prove this case one way of the other.

http://vita-brevis.org/2014/12/thoughts-y-dna-richard-iii/

Many of the examples of how the 'uncertain' rules apply, have been relatively recent, my query about how this might apply is centred on more ancient genealogy.  A second edition of The Ancestors of Charlemagne, by Christian Settipani, has been published recently and I can see value in marking those relationships as uncertain, and explaining the theory as best we can, citing Settipani's work as a basis.

However there are many other profiles from that era on Wikitree that seem to have no basis, and because there are no sources mentioned, it is difficult to decide whether they might be based on published works, or simply someone has seen two similar names, and put them together as the same person regardless of geography or how the generations might fit together.  Some of these relationships might be discussed in various forums, but others are so 'out there' they have never been considered by experts in this field.

If we want to go back even further, there have been and I am sure still are profiles on Wikitree that are considered mythological.  They are often backed by published works, the Anglo-Saxon chronicle, has generations of the early Kings, back to Woden or Odin, later Christian writers took the genealogy back to Adam.  The early histories of France and England both took early ancestors back to the fall of Troy.  A few weeks ago I caught someone adding these Trojan ancestors and managed to stop them, and a member of the team deleted those profiles.

I guess the question I'm asking, is where is the line?  Where do we decide that a relationship is uncertain, and where does it become impossible?  Where do we make an assessment based on solid research and discussion, and where do we follow unsourced online genealogies?

Thanks for explaining your 'techno-optimist' view and how the future of DNA research shapes your view of WikiTree's potential. It is a helpful lens for me to understand the motivation behind these new rules.

We all know there is a lot of BS in those shaking leaves, and your techno-optimist argument and 'uncertain' rules seem to want to cast a net to catch it all. Once it has arrived, the uncertain rules do a good job to protect it, too.  This may be the greatest thing ever for future DNA studies.  

While I'm a technology optimist, too, I would take Anderson up until someone else has a conclusion, supported with proof (DNA included), that makes the connection to the parents.    

When a shaking leaf and optimism about potential DNA discoveries trumps Anderson, and we connect the 'uncertain' parents (and their entire family trees), we aren't even talking about genealogy anymore. It isn't a case of 'less damaging.' Genealogy can be entirely pass/fail. This is a pretty good example of a failure.

I'd agree with Jillaine - this is pretty heartbreaking - and it will cause good genealogists to leave WikiTree.
This is obviously a discussion that has strong opinions on all sides but let's try to keep the tone friendly everyone :)  Thanks!
Jillaine - Re "preponderance of the evidence" - The BCG article you cited says that genealogy requires a higher level of proof. However, I suspect they are talking about proof of relationship, not proof as to whether someone was born in 1702 or 1703 or born in Salisbury rather than Amesbury. In the latter case (which, I think, is the type of situation the wkitree draft policy was talking about), "preponderance of the evidence" still makes the sense. If the date field currently says 1702, but 1703 is more likely, based on a preponderance of the evidence, I don't think anyone would disagree that we should change the date to 1703. Requiring a higher standard to change the date would mean keeping the less probable date, which makes no sense.

For proof of relationship, I really like the idea of using some designation like "uncertain" to mean a relationship that perhaps does not meet the BCG's standard of proof, but is reasonably plausible (based on an evidence-based argument, eg circumstantial evidence such as right age, right place, right time, right name) and has not been proven unlikely.
Eowyn, I don't consider any of these comments 'unfriendly'.  This plan of Chris' has serious implications and is of grave concern to a number of the leaders (and avid contributors) of Wikitree.  There are many of us that consider ourselves to be serious genealogists.  This doesn't sit right with us.  I believe that many of us with concerns about this latest development are saddened by this and thinking back over the thousands of hours we've devoted to what we considered to be a top quality site.  That's why many of us came here in the first place.  This latest development, to us, is throwing everything out the door...
Genetic genealogy still isn't an exact science... it doesn't reveal your ancestor's names and still involves quite a bit of interpretation. Although your DNA doesn't lie, scientists use it to calculate the probability that you and another researcher are related based on genetic patterns they've observed in populations. This means that genetic genealogy can suggest, but not prove, a relationship. You could have been fathered by your reported father's brother and the DNA report would read the same, proving nothing.

The hallmark of our credibility as a genealogy website within the genealogical community is thoroughness and quality in presenting and citing Evidence, preferably and ultimately accompanied by a proof argument. That is the fundamental standard that we should be setting as our bar, no matter what our experience level or how many DNA tests we've taken. Adding uncertain dates is one thing, but knowingly entering uncertain or unproven names in the data fields for any reason, whether marked uncertain or not, goes against my ethics and training as a genealogist.

I believe that data fields for unknown or uncertain parents should remain blank with narrative added to the body of the profile or posted to G2G for discussion of possible or probable parentage as has been our previous and well-served practice.
Alison, I think you might be mixing up different types of DNA tests. The comparisons with ethnic populations are a feature that the testing companies use as a selling point. They're not really related to genealogy.
 
There are solid genealogical benefits to the various types of DNA tests
 
A yDNA test, for example, can do more than suggest whether or not two men are related. It can confirm or disprove that they are related. And not just related in some way, but related through a specific inheritance pattern. The same goes for X-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA.
 
Since the DNA inheritance patterns are known, genealogists can use them to confirm or disprove specific relationships. WikiTree can do some really interesting things here. But only if we have relationships to confirm or disprove.
 
Darlene -- Sunshine Girl :-) -- I think Eowyn is right that some of this conversation has been unfriendly. Not terribly mean-spirited, but there's definitely been an air of confrontation rather than cooperation.
 
Ideally I would hope that leading members would be working with the team to find the best set of rules. What we have at http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Uncertain_new is a draft. I know the policy can be improved upon. Keeping the conversation friendly makes it easier for us to improve it.
 
Some things we can do to keep it friendly and productive:
 
* Avoid ultimatums.
* Avoid impugning the motives of others.
* Avoid sarcasm.
* Smile once in while. :-)
 

Thanks Chris, I've read the draft policy again and there is much to like.

However I would suggest a few changes.  For instance, I don't think rules (as you mention above) are a good idea with this policy, as John S pointed out there are many types of 'uncertain' situations and rules probaly won't ever cover them all.

However I do think there should be some 'simple' standards or guidelines, and they could be a precis of what you have already written.  Something like;

  1. Uncertain is the default position for all relationships between profiles on Wikitree (I think this fits in with genealogical standards)
  2. To make a change from uncertain to certain, or uncertain, to disproved, there needs to be a (preponderance of proof or whatever the term should be) and collaboration, discussion and consultation
  3. Making these changes needs to be well-documented in the biography of the profile, including citing appropriate sources.  Templates such as Disputed parents or (can't remember the one that states that the person may not have existed) may be useful.
  4. In any decision, reliable sources such as those listed in the draft policy, are given greater weight over those listed as uncertain.
  5. Remember this is a Wiki, so if new information is found, profiles can be changed easily

Also just something about the wording (and apologies if someone has already mentioned this) 

The heading What are examples of uncertain sources? lists both uncertain and reliable sources, so perhaps either the heading needs to change or there needs to be two headings?

Also the sources themselves aren't really uncertain or reliable, it's the information they contain, so maybe rather than Here are some sources that should be considered uncertain it should read - Here are some sources, that may contain uncertain (don't really like that word in this context) information

And Here are examples of reliable sources could be Here are examples of sources that contain more reliable information

 

+15 votes
My thinking is that we have all levels of Genealogical experience on WikiTree.  If someone who is new, or uninformed, does make some untoward connection, then the more experienced of us would need to work through that with the lesser experienced WikiTreer and come to a mutually satisfying conclusion.  I think this is the point we need to interject into the discussion.

We all work together and collaborate at all levels of Genealogical sophistication.

Mags

by Mags Gaulden G2G6 Pilot (641k points)
Mags, this is what we do a LOT in the PGM project. I would imagine that this happens in Magna Carta and EuroAristo as well. A newcomer comes along, with their GEDCOM that they compiled by clicking on waving green leaves, and copy/pasting from other online trees that were similarly compiled… ad infinitum.

We work through that by citing strong sources— original sources that directly support the conclusion (a parish record, for example), or a compilation of original and/or derivative sources that together support the conclusion, or research/analysis published in peer-reviewed journals, by experienced genealogists. 

What I’m reading in Chris’s proposal is that some unsourced online family tree's uncertain parents of say John Hicks-240 trumps Anderson’s and others’ analysis of the evidence. And that we should keep John as son of Robert even though there’s no such evidence of such a son so that others will find wikitree.

If that’s not what Chris intended in his proposal, then it needs to be written more clearly.

— Jillaine

 

Chris would need to chime in for your query for sure.

Thanks for clarifying Jillliane.  I know this does happen on WikiTree, that a rpoject takes a newcomer under their wing and helps them learn.

My point is that we ALL should have this mind-set.  We are all MENTORS.

Mags
Got it, Mags.

Thanks for the clarification.
+6 votes

Some of the legendary ancestry is important to maintain.  I like the template notice that "this person may not have existed" or some similar wording, but still maintaining the parent child relationship.  Some of the Scottish and Irish Clan legends of their origins and ancestry appeared be nothing more than a bard's tale, but Y chromosome testing has confirmed many of those legends.

How I wish some of those clan project admins would join WikiTree.

Most sincerely,

by Peter Roberts G2G6 Pilot (703k points)
I've placed a link elsewhere in this discussion to a report about trying to match the ydna of Richard III and the fact that there wasn't a match between Richard and 5 men from the Somerset family, as both should have been direct male line descendants of Edward III. The article suggests that they will never really know where the anomaly started, in the 16 generations from Edward to the Somerset line or the 5 generations from Edward to Richard. So I don't think DNA studies are going to solve many problems from the past. At least not at the moment.

Hello Jilliane,


Please go to the following and go back a few pages and start reading at page 169.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NJ6EPt17qeEC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=Sykes+clan+chiefs&source=bl&ots=npjVPKfIFR&sig=85RLTVeItoOBvwYg9wpttETZrnw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=duI-VaPMEI6TsQSkkIGgAQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Sykes%20clan%20chiefs&f=false

This is an example of Y-DNA helping transform a legend into historical evidence.

Sincerely, Peter 

Hello John,

DNA studies and Richard III's suspected direct maternal line descendants were key to confirming that it was Richard III.  Y-DNA was important to revealing the inaccuracy of the Plantangenet descendant lines.   As more people test we may find some who actually match Richard III we may be able to make genealogical connection.

Peter,

Thanks; interesting read. It's clear that all those different clans descended from the same person, a shared ancestor. Still not clear to me how he figured out WHICH ancestor... But there was something he wrote that really concerned me:

"If the had not [all shared the same Y-chromosome], then, if course, I could not have written about it." (p. 178)

Presumably he is referring to the fact that if they didn't share a Y-chromosome, that there had been a non-paternal event in there somewhere (an adoption or someone else fathered an heir).

But why wouldn't he have written about it? To protect the egos of the descendants? Hiding research results about centuries-old ancestry really bothers me, and for me, anyway, decreases the author's integrity and reliability. But I think we're getting off topic here...

 

BTW, I am not at all discounting the importance of DNA analysis. Certainly it's made huge differences for alot of research. I get concerned over two things, however:

1. when leaps are made from "these folks have common ancestry" to "these folks are all descended from Specific Person.

2. where/how we incorporate DNA analysis and information into wikitree profiles. Unless the DNA analysis absolutely identifies/confirms a given ancestor, I think the analysis belongs in the narrative.

This over-all thread is about when to place unproven parents in the father and mother fields of a given profile. Clearly there are two very distinct opinions about this. 

 

Should the paternal connections called into question by the Richard / Somerset mismatch all now be flagged Uncertain then?
Isn't Sykes also the man who invented Ursula and the rest of the mitochondrial Ur-mothers?

All good stuff for promoting his business.
RJ-re the Somerset/Richard III problem.

I think it might be overkill to mark all those relationships as uncertain, given that only one might be uncertain (or two, 1 of the 5 Somerset males had a different ydna from the other 4, which from memory must have been a fairly recent indiscretion).

I guess a decision might also depend on where you sit on the  genealogical debate over whether genealogy should be based just on DNA relationships or whether you take a broader view, and it's about family, no matter how that is organised.  I'm more in favour of the broader view.  

As to Sykes, I haven't read any of his books (the pages that Peter linked to, wouldn't open for me) but I gather that he believes that our genetics completely determines our behaviour, and not all the other things like sex, gender, social position, race, education, experience, etc - in other words all the other things that make us who we are.
John,

Genetic genealogy is a tool to help with our family history.  I don't believe genetics completely determines our behaviour.

Not every father son relationship would be uncertain.  There would be just one break with the Plantangent line.

Sincerely, Peter
Would that mean we can't use Uncertain if we're uncertain about which connection to be Uncertain about?

But if we knew where the bad connection was, it wouldn't be Uncertain, it would just be wrong.
+10 votes
All of the information in the "data field", including links to parents, are unsourced until backed up by documentation in the narrative.  A good profile needs to have documentation of all the facts in the data field -- or they're not facts.  

The beauty of the narrative field -- and the [[Smith-234|John Smith]] links one can put in it, is that all of the uncertain relationships can be listed and linked in that way.  If I'm working on a profile of John Doe and there are three frequently cited possibilities for the parents of John Doe, I can list them all and link them all -- in the narrative field, with a discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of each possibility.  

When I mark a parental link "confident" I mean that I have documentation for the relationship.  When I mark a parental link as "uncertain" I mean that while I have no documentation for it, I have no reason to disbelieve it.  

One difficulty with this discussion is that profiles are a moving target.  It's one thing to put up that John is the son of Mary.  But then when someone comes along to document it and can't find any documentation that John is the son of Mary, what existed without question yesterday now can't be sustained unless it is proved today.

And then if it can't be proved, I have to disconnect it.  I did that this week with my ancestor [[Winter-455|John Winter]] of Massachusetts.  If he were just the son of George Winter of Gloucestershire, he would be my latest Gateway Ancestor and I could claim my blood is blue.  But the facts aren't there, and I unlinked him.  He can be linked up again with the click of a mouse.  

I can't actually prove at this moment that he's NOT the son of George.  But if I left the link up, I'd be creating what really is a lie that other people who begin to trust WikiTree might rely upon, and that simply isn't right.  Despite any number of Ancestry.com genealogies asserting that John is the son of George, the evidence comes nowhere near to approaching even "uncertain" status as parent and child.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (461k points)

Nice Jack.  I just disconnected my expected ancestors in England for lack for support, too. I did it using the Disputed Parents directions.  It is a drag, but it has to be for the reasons you so clearly presented.

It all comes back to the Honor Code. We collaborate. We care about accuracy. We're always aiming to improve upon our worldwide family tree and fix mistakes. And we cite our sources.  

+6 votes

I wanted to add in my two cents here but I thought the way Chris summarized this on the other G2G post that John started was better than what I would have written so I'm taking the liberty of posting it here as well:

"The basic idea for the proposed standards of usage is that there is a low bar for adding Uncertain parents and a high bar for removing Uncertain parents that another good Wiki Genealogist wants to keep connected.

 
On the other side (and this should be made clear somewhere), I think there should be a low bar for setting parents that someone else added as Uncertain and a high bar for marking them as Confident.
 
If John wants to add parents and mark them as Uncertain, but Jillaine doesn't want them connected at all, Jillaine would have a high bar.
 
If John wants to mark parents as Confident but Jillaine wants them marked as Uncertain, John would have a high bar.
 
As for whether they're profiles that fit within a project or not, I think the relevancy of that just regards who is making the decisions. If it's a PGM profile it needs to be someone like John or Jillaine. We're assuming that the person who wants to keep the connection is a member in good standing who communicates with others in the context of the PGM project, understands all the points of the Pre-1700 quiz, etc."
by Eowyn Walker G2G Astronaut (2.5m points)
+6 votes

Chris, I went through some of my adoptions, and a score of connected orphans, all of which had no sources and a nearly blank bio since import in 2009.

In line with what I think this new this new Uncertain status indicator is about, I makred the parents of all of them Uncertan, and I left the explanation note, "uncertain parents based on lack of sources."

I like that, it provides a handy flag in tree views about what needs to be sourced.

BUT, my next concern is that some unobservant yet well-meaning WikiTreer will now come along, see all the Uncertain indicators on the parents, and then say, oh, these are all speculative guesswork connections, so I must now detach them all, to ensure tree integrity.

Thus breaking all the relationships, which will be reallly, really hard to repair at a much later time when it finally gets discovered.

So, if this first part is what you want us to do, makring unsourced parents as Uncertain, then the page for editing parent attachemnts needs to have a big red flashing warning that says that it is absolutely forbidden to remove parents that another contributor has marked as Uncertain.

Or what exactly is that bar for parental removal? A *good* source? Any contradictory source? A discussion with the original contributor? A G2G?

That whole resolution part remains terribly vague. I would like to continue to mark much of the unsourced tree connections as Uncertain, because of the benefits that provides. But I am really wary of the consequences by some contributors.

by Steven Mix G2G6 Mach 4 (47.8k points)
+8 votes
I contacted Chris privately as a result of this issue and the various comments/discussions.  He asked me to post my email on G2G so others could read it.  Since we've got a couple different discussions going right now on the use of uncertain vs. not attaching parents, I'm not sure which G2G discussion to respond to.  But I'm putting it on this one...
 
I, along with numerous other Wikitree leaders, am extremely upset (in case you couldn't tell) with your present proposal.  It goes against our better judgement, because it isn't good genealogical practice.  We aren't 'mad' about it, so we aren't responding while angry.  What we are is extremely sad.  We all came to Wikitree with the thought of it having higher standards and not having incorrect information.  We thought we'd found a place to 'get it right'.  The bulk of us that are upset are the ones that oversee the older profiles, i.e. EuroAristo, Magna Carta, PGM, although there also are certified genealogists that won't agree to do what you are proposing.  There's enough junk out there on ancestry.com and Geni.com.  What we thought Wikitree was going to be was the authoritative place where people could go to locate their ancestry.
 
What you've got going for you is DNA.  That can be fabulous.  As others have pointed out, you probably aren't going to be able to prove ancestry back to medieval nobles and royalty via DNA.  And as such, we don't want parents attached that have no basis whatsoever other than 'someone' thinks they could possibly be the parents (even when known authorities state they most probably/certainly are NOT).  I think I'm finally understanding your initial desire to have unknown and unproven parents linked to profiles.  I believe you're wanting to be able to prove or disprove the lineage through DNA.  I had this happen to me personally.  I had a Richard Thrift showing in my personal database as a potential ancestor of my ancestor Isham Thrift.  Y-DNA proved there was no connection between the two.
 
Unfortunately, this just doesn't sit well with a lot of people.  You know how it goes:  You can please most of the people some of the time, and some of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
 
I'm a huge advocate of DNA.  I think you need to  try and do a better job of explaining why you are considering doing this.  Because until today, when the light bulb came on image, I was planning to walk away.  Many others are about to do that.  I'm still on the fence.  If we could find a happy medium, whereas we didn't attach 'anyone and everyone' to profiles prior to 1400 or 1500, you would appease a few of us.
 
I think you need to decide, or if you've already decided then just spell it out, what direction you plan to take your site.  Just sayin'...  image
 
Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project
by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (539k points)
Hi Darlene,
 
As I mentioned via e-mail the other day, we're working on changes now.  I actually just made some edits a few minutes ago.
 
I've been trying to get a draft proposal out of Lianne or someone else but so far there's nothing else written out, so I'm working on changes to my draft instead.
 
I know you wanted to have this discussion one-on-one via e-mail, but I prefer that we talk about policies publicly here in G2G. We want other community members to hear the opinions of leaders like you, and be able to express their own opinions. I also think it's valuable to have a record for the future of how the policy was worked out, when others want to understand it, or if it someday needs to be revised.
 
Chris
 
P.S.  I'm thinking we should spin off a new Q&A asking this: "Should the rules and standards on WikiTree be the same as those for certified genealogists?" Maybe you could ask that and give your opinions?
+7 votes
As an experienced (though not professional) genealogist, who is deeply offended by myths masquerading as facts, I've followed these threads with interest.  

What seems missing so far from the conversation is a recognition of WikiTree's collaborative nature.  Previously for me, genealogy has always before been a personal effort in which I had only myself to answer to.  WikiTree, however, is collaborative, and I am accountable to others for what I do.  This is a BIG change, and we ignore its implications at our peril.

Now, the way we're set up is, we don't collaborate on initial data entry.  When Chris writes that "the bar is low" for the first person to enter the data, I don't think he really means lower standards for data, but lower standards for collaboration.  If nobody's entered John Smith before, it may be because nobody else knows about or cares about John Smith and so WikiTree says, "go for it."  

Actually, WikiTree is getting tighter on initial data entry.  A month ago I created some profiles and before 24 hours had passed, before I had a chance to add narrative and sources, a Ranger had posted me a note saying I needed sources.  A bit of me was annoyed but the bigger part of me was saying, "Hooray, somebody is noticing these things."

But from the perspective of collaboration, initial data entry has a low bar.  We check to see if there's already a profile and then we do it.

But when it comes to changes, review, corrections, etc, by definition one is interacting with data someone else has initiated.  So the "higher bar' for making changes is a bar with respect to collaboration -- not as a judgment on the quality of the data, but as an observation that at this point other people are involved and one of the values of WikiTree is respect.

So from this perspective, yes, less work is expected to enter bad information than to correct it.  But this is not a statement favoring bad information, it's a statement recognizing the collaborative nature of WikiTree.

From that perspective, a use of the "uncertain" status is simply a marker that says "collaboration pending."  As well as "research pending."   I really think there's a consensus among WikiTree members that a fact or relationship which is truly uncertain should be discussed in the narrative, not entered into the data field.  But until any of us can devote the time to research or collaborate on something, "uncertain" can be a useful temporary marker.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (461k points)
+4 votes
I find it important to note that not only do a lot of people show the same concerns, but proponents of this change seem to be saying they are still trying to get the idea clear in their own mind. That leads me to an obvious question: what type of real world problem on Wikitree are we trying to fix here? Has anyone been posting examples of over-cautious deletion of links that started all this? What is the aim?
by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Pilot (141k points)

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