LNAB for Walter Sais to change to ap ... um, how do you spell Roger in Welsh?

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After a proposed merge of Sais-6 and Rhosser-1, the profile managers decided that the LNAB should be the Welsh "ap Rhosser" rather than Sais. Since this would be a LNAB change, I started looking for the source of the "Rhosser" spelling (for "Roger) & couldn't find it. It's spelled in a variety of ways - Rosser, Rossier, Rhosier, Rhosser, Rhosier. Found "ap Rhosier" (from "Vaughan Family of Wales") and "ap Rosser" (from Dwnn, p 255).

The Cymru project naming guidellines say that "unless otherwise decided," to go with the spelling used by FamilySearch's Welsh Medieval Database - which has been "temporarily down for maintenance" for about a month (if not longer). If he's in MedLands, I couldn't find him.

So. How would the Welsh have spelled Roger in the late 1200s/early 1300s? Barring that, what would the spelling be now?

WikiTree profile: Gwallter ap Rosser
in Genealogy Help by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (633k points)

1 Answer

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Best answer
Hi Liz

You seem to gave a conundrum. To be honest I can only imagine that the names are in themselves a little fanciful and probably recorded after the fact. Anyway, I would always apply the old adage that you should never 'interpret' names - so you would be Liz and I would be John irrespective of whether there is a local equaivalent in the language of the place you happened to be at the time.

Roger is from Norman-French and is quite foreign to Wales, but after the English Conquest these names did creep into Wales. My guess is that if someone has been recorded as 'de Rosser' and it is intended as Roger then it has been recorded locally from a phonetic interpretation. I would further guess that the recorder is a Welshman and interpreting the name based on the way it was pronounced, and that the name was of someone coming from England.

You are proposing to merge because you apparently have two people who are one and the same; and the other surname is Sais.

Are you aware that if I were to introduce myself to you it would be perfectly correct in Welsh to say that I am "John, Sais ydw y". Which means that I am English. Sais, Saes and variants relate to Saesneg - the Cymraeg word for English. In the same way that Welsh is a derivative of the Old English (Anglo-Saxon) word Welisc, meaning foreigner, the Welsh termed all of those from England as Saxons. The Goidelic word Sassenach has the same meaning.

The name Walter was common in England, even before the Conquest, and Gwalter is the 'Welshified' version. So this appears to be Walter the Englishman, and whilst he may have been the son of Roger, my guess is that he was never an Ap Rhosser or any other such variant.
by John Orchard G2G6 Mach 2 (23.2k points)
selected by Liz Shifflett

Hi John!  Since it's you, I'll ask another question about this family... which is categorized as being in Category:Brecknockshire, Wales & that page says that Brecknockshire is also known as County of Brecknock, Breconshire, or the county of Brecon and is one of the 13 historic counties of Wales (from Wikipedia, and you've helped me with info from there before!).

Anyway, the "Tretower Court" Vaughan family of "Brecknock" were founded by the third son of Roger of Bredwardine, Herefordshire (son of Walter Sais who had married into the property), according to the Dictionary of Welsh Biography, which also says

"the family had accumulated property at Llechryd in Elvael and Cwm Du before Walter Seys had won renown and wealth in the wars of Edward III"

And that seems to make "Walter Sais" Welsh ... a Dwnn footnote (about a different man named Sais) had

"Sais, i.e., Englishman, was often given to those who had passed most of their time in England"

So leaving off the question of whether or not the people were Welsh, were they ilving in Wales? Herefordshire is England, but it appears Walter (Watkin?) moved there when he married.

As always - THANKS!

Hi Liz

I cannot count myself as expert in respect of Brecknockshire, although my mother's maternal line are from neighbouring Monmouthshire and I have walked and cycled throughout the area of the old county.

You must take this response as me thinking aloud rather than offering a definitive answer. Brecknockshire, Monmouthshire and the Welsh counties running north along the border with England, and their English counterparts which would include Chester, Shropshire, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire were all in whole or in part contained within the Welsh Marches.

The purpose of the Marches was as a buffer between England and the problematic Welsh on the western side of Offa's Dyke and the Rivers Wye and Dee. In effcet the King of England created Lordships who were given near independence to develop their lands for their own ends on condition that they maintained a secure barrier against incursions from the Welsh. There were three Earldoms created to go with the areas, Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford.

As time went on the area of the Welsh March grew, in that English dominance under their Norman aristocracy pushed further into Wales, especially in the south.

The presence of a Walter known as Sais will almost certainly not be because he used to travel frequently to England, although throughout the Marcher counties there was a great deal of movement between England and Wales and vice versa. The ruling classes from the twelfth century within the Marcher area was ethnically Norman - hence Roger!  These Marcher Lordships were exept from the King of England's taxes and most other tributes and restrictions except the provision of military support when the king demanded.

Whilst Wales was not formally subsumed by the English crown until Henry VIII, every English king since William I had maintained the Marches and had pushed into Wales bit by bit. Towns such as Monmouth and Ludlow, and the now misnamed Newtown, would not exist except for these Marcher Lords. The area of Wales governed by Welsh princes after 1066 decreased steadily, and by the 1300s was restricted to the central western parts, the Lleyn peninsular and north Wales west of the River Conwy. Edward I had built his castles to intimidate and overawe the Welsh. The period you are discussing is in the reign of his grandson.

This was a period of further English (Anglo-Norman aristocracy) settlement and the founding of new great estates in Wales - and the old Welsh kingdom of Brycheniog was ripe for exploitation and it became the English dominated county of Brecknock or Brecon.

It is my belief that we are talking abut Anglo-Norman aristocrats rather than native Welsh people. The fact that they had estates on both sides of the border does not alter that fact - most did! You must remember that by this time, the old Duchy of Normandy and been lost to the English crown. This posed a real problem for most of the ruling classes, because they had had estates in both Normandy and in England. The French king had made them choose! Those remaining in England wanted the opportunity to replace their lost Norman estates which is why so many after 1200 were looking at Wales and Scotland. (Scotland was also dominated by Anglo-Normans - no matter what Mel Gibson thinks!)

I am unsure if that answers your question, but it did enable me to think aloud!wink

It does, yes & the "nevermind" question too (of whether they were Welsh). Thanks so much for thinking aloud! Cheers, Liz

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