Any objections to disconnecting the parents of John Lawrence?

+6 votes
695 views
His parents are not included in the work of Douglas Richardson. Although included in Our Noble, Titled & Common Ancestors, no sources are cited.
WikiTree profile: John Lawrence
in Genealogy Help by Doug Lockwood G2G Astronaut (2.6m points)
Dunno about him, but I'd like to de-parent his mother.  She's not in any pedigree for the Beaumonts of Whitley, she's too early (her great-grandfather Arthur Pilkington was born 1482), and there's no explanation for her mother being in Hertfordshire.  And her alleged sister Rosamund was sole heiress.

2 Answers

+2 votes

I don't know a thing about them as well, but maybe the unverified parents template is an idea ? We use it a lot in situations like this, you can add an explanation to it as well. There's also an unverified father or mother template . (With the unverified mother template something seems to be wrong or maybe someone removed stuff, tried to fix it , but guess someone of the template project better look at it.) 

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (305k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
+3 votes
Doug - thanks for posting this & for disconnecting the parents William and Katherine (Beaumont) Lawrence. John's son Thomas Lawrence was the first husband of Joan Antrobus. Several of his children immigrated to America with her and her second husband, John Tuttle. His children who were in the Gateway Ancestors category have been moved to the Questionable Gateway Ancestors category, as the connections to Magna Carta surety barons (MCSBs) previously shown in WikiTree were through the incorrect grandparents. John's wife, Elizabeth Bull, has royal ancestors, but no MCSBs as lineal ancestors that I can find.

Cheers,
Liz
by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (626k points)

Please read David L. Greene's work, The Royal Ancestry of Ipswich, MA and Long Island Lawrence Families before you move any of John Lawrence's children into a "questionable" Gateway category or demote  :)  them from any Magna Carta Sureties, since all have been proven to be related to multiple royal lines back to Charlemagne (as of 1989) and more than likely, then, to Surety Barons.*  You can find it here:  http://www.charlemagne.org/tg_v10_no_1_spring_1989.pdf

Also, please look at this book from Harvard University Press supporting the pedigree of the John Lawrence/Elizabeth Bull, Thomas Lawrence/Joan Antrobus family. You can find the book here: 

Migration and the Origins of the English Atlantic World (Harvard Historical Studies) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674007026/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=

I am a descendant of Marie Lawrence, daughter of Thomas Lawrence and Joan Antrobus and granddaughter of John Lawrence and Elizabeth Bull. This pedigree was proved in detail 100 years ago using primary sources (wills, etc) by my grandfather in order to join the Society of Colonial Wars, with the St. Alban's Lawrence line confirmed in 1989.

*See T. A. Crocker for Marie Lawrence pedigree--should be fairly easy from this to trace Surety lines. http://www.tacrocker.com/ui02.htm#a617

 

 

Thanks! Wonderful information. Have you added this to the relevant profiles? Also, do you still have access to primary sources? The Magna Carta project uses Richardson as its primary source. If someone is not documented by Richardson as a descendant of a Magna Carta Surety Baron (MCSB), that does not mean they are not a descendant, just that they are not documented by Richardson. The project uses the category "Questionable Gateway Ancestor" to identify those who may be Gateway Ancestors, but are not noted as such by Richardson. In fact, that's how I got involved with the project - when an ancestor I was certain of was labeled "Questionable...". Wasn't what I first thought at all :D

Cheers, Liz

the two "primary source" comments in my post are using different meanings of the word primary. The project page - http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Magna_Carta - phrases it better:

Magna Carta Ancestry and Royal Ancestry by Douglas Richardson are the foundational sources for the Magna Carta Project.

The Mayflower people will know more about this, but I don't think the Southworth line on the Crocker chart is accepted.

The Bull line looks good, but it descends from the sister of a Magna Carta Baron.  Well there have to be some near misses.
Thanks for your comment, Liz.  I haven't added anything yet but plan to work on it soon. Yes, I have access to all the documented sources that were recorded on multiple pedigrees for family who were members of the DAR and Colonial Wars.

As it stands right now, it looks like the Bull line goes back to King John and beyond (as far as the MCSB era goes) and honestly, I wish I could skip him.  :)  My small experience with tracking the Barons has been that if you hit one, you will more than likely hit more since the family bloodlines were so interconnected.  I've been busy verifying some Lawrence family info so haven't started tracing the Sureties yet. My grandfather had it done but they did not have the correct Lawrence information in 1915 (had the old St. Ives errors) so the scroll is a fascinating historical document but doesn't prove the MCSBs...yet.
Since Mr. Crocker is a far more experienced genealogist than I, I'll let him defend his Southworth line--I have no relatives linked to that, as far as I know.  My interest in his work is for his meticulous pedigree of the Lawrence/Bull family.
Just a note that the Crocker link is included to demonstrate the historical reach of a family tree. It was pulled from an internet archive and may include information that is not up to date i.e. John Lawrence.  Correct information is: John Lawrence married Elizabeth Bull.

Lawrence is descendant of the Lords Peeche (Lord Sin). William Lanvalli married a daughter of Lord Peeche by his wife, sister to Robert Fitz Walter. Dead 1212. So, no MC ancestry. 

I've always wondered how the families came thru the War of the Roses. Lawrence was et ux for six generations.  Gateway ancestor to Hughes Capet, Alfred, Charlemagne. 

I agree that MC ancestry has yet to be proved on the Lawrence side but on the Bull side, Greene's research in The Genealogist certainly opens up possibilities.  http://www.charlemagne.org/tg_v10_no_1_spring_1989.pdf  Are you saying that the traditional pedigree of Charlemagne is not linked in any way to the MC?  Just curious.  :)

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