Taking on Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn

+7 votes
311 views

** Edited based on Ron's answer below **

I'm getting ready to clean up and apply the Cymru guidelines to Gwladys.

Plan:

  1. Merge profile Llewellyn-172 into Llewelyn-43. Note: There is an unmatched merge since June 22, 2014.
  2. Request to change LNAB to "ferch Llywelyn"
  3. Request projection protection from Vic Watt
  4. Edit Bio

Questions:

  1. Is there any trick to entering the LNAB that will result in lower case for the prefix?
  2. What is best way to resolve unmatched merge?
  3. Anything else?
     
WikiTree profile: Gwladus de Mortimer
in Policy and Style by Erin Cole G2G2 (2.9k points)
edited by Erin Cole

Erin - Don't merge until you have a correct LNAB.* Neither LNAB is correct per the Cymru Project's Naming Guide. The Last Name at Birth field should be ferch Llywelyn ... now that we've figured out the preferred spelling for Dad :D

Richardson, FGM/MedLands, and Bartrum all spell her given name Gwladus.

* to avoid unnecessary redirects. See Multiple Duplicates (and the more technical "multiple redirects problem")

ps - no trick for lowercase ferch in LNAB field, except to make sure you type a lowercase f when changing the LNAB. However, it will display as capital in a number of places - see http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ap_Iorwerth-26 - it's uc Ap in the mini-menu at upper right of profile, but the full name displays correctly at the top of the profile.

To change the LNAB, you'll need to be a manager of one of the two profiles in order to change the name. Any Leader can lock the profile (PPP). Let me know & I can do that for you.

Pretty sure that in this case the unmerged match was set because neither had correct LNAB. Once you have one with the right name & PPP, you can click on [compare] from the listed unmerged match & then propose the merge - you'll be prompted to confirm that you're removing the match; then click initiate new merge & compare them. If they're a clear match (they are), propose the merge. You'll be prompted to say why you think they're duplicates (e.g.,same dates/husband; both attached as daughter of Llywelyn).

And thanks for taking Gwladus on :D

Cheers, Liz

2 Answers

+3 votes
Unfortunately I cannot compare either Llewlyn-43 & Llewllyn-172 as both are showing invalid ID's. However if they are duplications then they should first be proposed for a merge, then completed. Should the merged  profiles LNAB be truly "ferch Llywelyn" then following the completion of the merge, you should liase with the joint profile managers with evdence that the LNAB be edited.

The completed merge should be first part of a project, and a leader of that project be invited to PPP that profile.
by Living Woodhouse G2G6 Pilot (280k points)

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Llewelyn-43 and http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Llewellyn-172

Llywelyn had one daughter named Gwladus & two profiles for her are attached. Neither has correct LNAB.

 

just a comment on the order .... You can move 4. up - since Llewellyn-172 is completely undeveloped & Llewelyn-43 is a bit of a mess, there's no reason to wait on editing Llewelyn-43 while you coordinate the name change with the profile managers. I posted a note on Llewellyn-172 for Tim. Since PMs aren't notified when a G2G post is attached to the profile, you can either post a similar note on Llewelyn-43 or ask for their feedback in a trusted list request. The spelling Llywelyn is discussed in this G2G post and the Cymru Project's Naming Guide is here (for copy/paste:  http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/217409/ and http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Cymru_Welsh_Royals_and_Aristocrats_742-1535 ).

Also, 1. should be moved down past the name change & PPP. You want to merge into the correctly named profile, and it's best to PPP that profile before proposing a merge so that it doesn't go the wrong way (which would add an extra re-direct instead of eliminating one).

Cheers, Liz

Thanks for your help with this problem, Liz, I tried to resolve it myself, but lacked the comprehensive sources that you enjoy. Very much appreciate all you are doing here.
+4 votes
Hello Erin

A few other issues -

Another question seems to be whether her first name should be Gwladys or Gladwys or Gwladus or perhaps even another variation.

I'm not sure of Welsh naming patterns or which sources are the best but a link to Bartrum on this question http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/217409/detach-wrong-mother-from-margaret-verch-lewellyn-clifford?show=217409#q217409 gives her name as Gwaldus.

Also Vic is away until 21 February according to her profile so if you want to PPP the profile just post a request on G2G and someone will do that for you.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (609k points)

for once it's unanimous... Richardson's Royal Ancestry, Bartrum, and FMG all have Gwladus.

 

Thanks for all the great input!

I guess that's a pretty strong argument for Gwladus, but I have to say "Boo"!

I have a preference for Gwladys and Gryffydd.  Further, I would use Marared, Llywelyn, Gwenllian, Elen (for Llywelyn ap Iorwerth's daughters), Dafydd.

I prefer the attempts to phonetically spell what was heard from the Welsh (of which I am ignorant).  If those two names are pronounced in the way that I pronounce the anglicized names, Gladys and Griffith, "y" seems a better choice than "u".  Actually, if Llywelyn is pronounced Lou-Ellen and not Li-Wellin then Llewelyn might be the spelling that does better justice to that name (sorry to bring that up Liz). I guess that would naturally lead to Elyn?

I am most familiar with FMG, but that source seems to have no problem with Anglicization! Short of documentation saying that Marared preferred to be called Margaret or actually wrote of herself using that name, I would not use Margaret.  In addition to the scribes not knowing how to spell the names, the Anglicization of names was a matter of subjugation.

Are we aiming at a list of spellings we will use everywhere?  Or will we be content to use Gruffudd, Gruffydd, etc., depending on the profile.  I do not have a strong preference one way or the other.  However, if we are going for a unified list, we better get about it!

Can we get RJ Horace or some other person knowledgeable about Welsh naming to weigh in?

It was RJ's comments on the question about the LNAB for (now) ferch Llywelyn that clinched it as Llywelyn.

WikiTree says to use their convention, not ours (not always possible to determine, as contemporary sources used multiple spellings, and Latin).

Projects can/do refine WikiTree's guidelines: see http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Name_Field_Guidelines for a collection.

Cheers, Liz

Me?  I tried to learn a bit of Welsh once, but I lost.

And words like Anglicization and subjugation belong to modern Welsh mythology, which I'm not getting into.

As for "theirs not ours", we don't.  Nobody ever told the gedcommers they'd have to go through all their English medievals changing them to Johan and Rycharde and Ales and Mahald and Sissily.  Everybody uploaded the spellings in the books, which are all modernised.  Except for the odd tasteful archaism, like Piers.

Bartrum's spelling is modernised generally.  Gwladus is the odd tasteful archaism I think.
But rumour now has it that there's been a total reversal of WikiTree policy, and the rule that said to modernize spellings has been replaced by one that says don't.

I've never heard of such a rule - one way or another.

I joined WikiTree in 2012 when I found a profile for my mother's grandmother. Not long after, I found the father of a brick wall & discovered he had a profile in WikiTree also... and was a descendant of New Netherland settlers (and dived into the deep end of patronymics & multiple spellings/stylings). WikiTree policy then was "use their convention, not ours" & has not changed.

Maybe that was a EuroAristo project refinement?

It was in the help file - the red Winslow rule quoted here

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/218461/what-is-lnab-really-request-for-help-text-change

but now gone.

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