source citation formatting issue

Question

I'm seeing sources I cited (books, headstones, docs from courthouse or state or national archives, probably anything real) being surrounded by URLs to some online related version. I learned to do genealogy before there were online sources, and still consider real documents and such as superior to most things found online. I find it insulting for someone to change a real source to a link that wasn't even used.

Comments

I wasn't through but phone wouldn't let me see more text.

I suggest not changing someone else's citation of a book or headstone or official document to a link. Just put the link after it as an addition not a replacement.

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Easier if you give examples.... and/or communicate direct

Doing correct citations is a never ending story you have a whole book Evidence Explained just about the subject

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No examples because that personalizes it. Communicating directly, no,because (a) would have to do it for each person; (b) person doing it will just defend their method. Unless she has an updated edition, Evidence Explained would not cover many issues related to shared editing on a wiki site.

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1. One example is enough
    
2. "Evidence Explained would not cover many issues related to shared editing on a wiki site." ?!?!?
   
   I dont agree they also have online forums.... what special with a wiki site.... you need good citations so you can find the original records...
   
   I asked on the facebook page about the challenges I see at WikiTree with people not understanding Swedish genealogy that try to read a citation and got an excellent answer see quicktips/citation-shortcuts-researchers-needs-vs-recordkeeping-systems
   
   Read it as she is a good writer and has done this before.... of all the challenges you have with a citation
    
3. " defend their method. "
   Isn't it therefore we have forums to discuss things....
   
   In a common tree people people need to find ways to agree or understand.... Someone told me they didnt understand my citations see Evidence Explained and reason was that person was not skilled in Swedish Genealogy my decision is then should I have links to learn Swedish Genealogy on every citation or not? When we used Templates we had those links for free....

 

Answer 1

Sorry Mikey, I may have been the culprit.  The practice on Wikitree, as I know it, is to make the citation as "reachable" as possible, so others can see the actual source, rather than trust that the person who did the citing got it right. I have found cases in which people have misinterpreted a source, or worse, "reinterpreted" a source to make it agree with their assumptions.

In adding my old genealogy work to Wikitree, whether a citation is to a book or an Ancestry citation, if I can find it for free online, it is easier for others to check.  I have a lot of citations to books that I have looked at.  No one can tell what the book really says unless they look at it.  The easiest way for them to look at it is to go to an imaged copy online.  If the publisher, publication date and place are the same, and the page number match, the citations are pointed to the same thing. (If the citation included a note that something was written in the margin, then obviously, they wouldn't be the same.)

For me, Wikitree is a collaborative site.  Making a citation more accessible to others is a good thing, and I welcome anyone to add a link to an online source for one of my citations.

Comments

I don't understand this discussion if you don't give us examples

1. Citation 
   Is a way to describe so other people can find the correct record and also get some information about the source
    
2. Links to the source
   Is just a way to see the source

Both should be mentioned on a profile

 

See Family Search example

The citation is 

"United States Census, 1940," database with images, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VR26-5YN : accessed 25 September 2016), Richard Nixon in household of Ervin Nixon, Topeka Township, Shawnee, Kansas, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) 89-64B, sheet 4A, family 85, Sixteenth Census of the United States, 1940, NARA digital publication T627. Records of the Bureau of the Census, 1790 - 2007, RG 29. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 2012, roll 1261.

The link to the original is 
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-27755-6229-25?cc=2000219

 

 

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Magnus, Many out-of-copyright books are included in Open Library or Internet Archive. So, if a citation is to a book, and there is a free imaged copy of the book online, I routinely add a link to the online image, along with the other citation information.  Same goes for a link to a census on a pay site when I can find a free image on another stable website. This makes the actual source available to everyone, not just someone who can find the book in a library or who subscribes to the pay site.

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I agree online sources are excellent but we have something on internet that is a growing problem with dead links so we need also the reference the source so it can be found in other tools...

If you read the answer to my question from Evidence Explained one comment was from  06/22/2016 and spoke about the in the citation the database name was not mentioned in the Archive Digital product. The funny thing is 2016 it was just one default database and now Arkiv Digital the company has started to add different databases in the product..... ==> you maybe need to change the way of reference the online version....

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The potential of dead links should not stop us from using them. That's one reason to use access dates. And with dates, archive.org's Wayback machine might help us find an archived copy of what was behind a now dead link.

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Dead links I agree but WikiTree should have something written about how to handle them....

1. Use Access date
2. Templates for external links if possible
3. Bots checking links
4. Templates for broken links Template:Dead_link

Lesson learned is that also wayback machines dies .....

I feel also we should have an error for profiles with hardcoded URLs http://www.yadayada.com..... Instead of text with hyperlink.... 2016 I feel we should have learned how to link text.... 

 

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I have an application called grab it. I like to take a photo of the information, and post it. If you site it and the link disappears, you have a photo of the information.. Just an idea!

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Magnus, I would really rather use stable URLs, but they are difficult to come by. If you know of an easy way for a layman, not connected with a library or university, to generate them, please let me know.

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@Vic without getting to technical the web is wrong designed with today's URLs and to make the pain less all Wiki's use templates when adding links to external sites

The problem inside WikiTree is that somehow using Templates for external linking has been classified as a big No No which is sad as this is one thing that is in the product and just start using.....

Answer 2

Mikey, 

Our Honor Code

1. We collaborate. When we share ancestors we work together on the same ancestor profiles.

by adding links to online sources others are only helping others to see that your source is accurate. I could see there being a problem if others were changing things to make your work seem wrong but from what you are describing they are only making things easier and better for all of us.

Comments

I do agree that changing to just a link is a bad idea. The source should have enough information for others to find it if a link would go dead, but a link is not a bad source by itself, just a poor one.

Answer 3

Another possible solution would be to use a Source Profile.

However, I've also run into issues with lack of clarity of formatting and best practice on their usage in People Profiles. (Which probably deserves it's own thread on the forum.)

Answer 4

This topic is not about what most of the comments are bringing up. The point was when someone has cited a real world reference don't enclose that in a link (I.e., inside the "]"). Just add the link as additional information. You could use something like "also available online" as the link title inside the "]". That preserves the original as well as providing access online. If I got the data in person, I don't want to see it presented as a link to a website. Some of the best parts of genealogy research are the experiences of going to a site, or handling a 200+ year old document. Online only internet "researchers" miss out on that.