Did John Alleyn / Allen of Outwell, Norfolk exist?

Question

I have been trying to locate any sources for this man, or his possible duplicate - John Allen-3874. He supposedly married Agnes Allen / Alleyn and died in Outwell, Norfolk in 1458 or 1459. Currently he is linked as a son of John FitzAlan, 13th Earl Arundel (FitzAlan-625). I have so far been unable to find anything on him except numerous online trees. (See also my question on the G2G regarding his son Thomas who married Margaret Walkenden). Any information to assist me in clarifying who he was, would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

See also this G2G thread from 2013: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/20960/who-were-parents-sir-john-alleyne-born-buckinghamshire-1410 - which appears to refer to the same person. (Most online trees have him born in Buckinghamshire in 1410 and dying in Outwell, Norfolk in 1458 or 1459).

---

The Walkenden wife seems to belong to the Allans of Brockhouse, Staffs. 

The Allans of Blackwell Grange sent their pedigree to Burkes (1836).  It starts in 1651 with a man who made his pile as a Newcastle coal-owner.  There's the usual preamble about descent from an ancient family.  Could be true, but anybody would claim descent from anybody they could get away with.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KA8WAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA39

Could be they sent a longer pedigree and Burkes truncated it.

They also sent a pedigree to Foster (1874). 

https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount03fost#page/n19/

Foster gives the Staffs family stuck on the top.  He might have got that from somewhere else.  Haven't found a source for the bit where George goes off to live in Durham.

No sign of a Norfolk connection.  All I've found on Norfolk is this in Rye's index

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112112385981?urlappend=%3Bseq=16

Somebody had an armorial seal in 1375, but 2 of them disclaimed in 1664.

 

 

---

Thanks RJ. Appreciate you looking for me!

---

This is mentioned in the old thread - Thomas the 12th earl, d 1415, did leave an illegitimate son John, provided for in his will.  Complete Peerage 2nd edn Vol 14 p. 38, correction to Vol 1 p. 246.

---

I just discovered the Norfolk wills are searchable online. What a brilliant surprise! I have seen this one cited (the only source I have seen so far), but not a transcription, only the contents in the link. http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=16&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27Allen%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29AND%28Date%3D%2715th%20century%27%29%29

It's at Hunstanton rather than Outwell, and isn't for John. At this stage, I can't see any reason to think that the Agnes of Hunstanton, who died around 1458 is related to the John Alleyn we are looking at. I did a search for all the wills for Outwell and none are for anyone with a version of the name Allen. There are also no people with the surname Allen (or variation) in the PCC wills for the 15th century. Unless the will was for some reason proved in another county, I don't think there is a will for John Alleyn d 1458/9.

---

I’ve just found this oassage in British history online 

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol3/pp196-200

It mentions the lands owned by the Norwoods, which later passed into the hands of Earls of Arundel in 1364. As Simon Norwood married Alice Aleyne, I wonder if this is in part what’s causing the confusion over the links to Arundel? 

Answer 1

While this is from a genitree there are a number of sources listed.  

I post it because I think it is worth trying to track down the sources.

This is for a slightly later John Alleyn but most likely same family.

https://www.geni.com/people/John-Alleyne-Knight-of-Chartley-Manor/6000000020212538004

Comments

I did wonder if there were generations missing, as it skips over 200 years in 4 generations.

Wrong link above, that's Chartley.  Buckenhall is

https://books.google.com/books?id=P8M9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA16

 

---

I found this reference on Geni.com (thanks Laura and Valerie!) - https://books.google.com.au/books?id=_y4wAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA363&ots=_Zd-ntqn7I&dq=sir+Alan+de+buchenhall&pg=PA363&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sir%20Alan%20de%20buchenhall&f=false  Again, it isn't about John Alleyn - (the subject of this post and the relevant geni profile) but does mention George Alleyne-11 and the supposed link way back to Alanus de Buckenhall.

---

Yeah there are a lot of assertions but that is why I think we need to find the sources they are citing to see if they really say what is being asserted.  

Sometimes fakers will list impressive sources that do not support what they say in their narrative.   Sources need to be checked out.  Every now and then you stumble onto a really good real source.  So I look but don't believe until proven.

---

1564 version

https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00cook#page/n14/

Didn't say George Allen of Chartley, only "descended of Allen sometime of Chartley".

 

---

I love the collaboration going on here!

http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/  I checked this for Allen and Alleyn and Allan through the search function.  

http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/browse/people/static-index-volumes-18-26/   Scroll down to Aleyn there are a number of them.  Perhaps this is an earlier spelling.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/Search.htm   Try various spellings...  Allan brought up some things to look at.  Aleyn  Alleyn did not.  

powered byCustom Search

SCOTLAND EARLS

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm

SCOTland, mormaers, earls, lords. v3.2 Updated 25 April 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. INTRODUCTION. 3. Chapter 1. ANGUS. 4. A. MORMAERS of ANGUS.. 4. B. EARLS of ANGUS.. 5. C. EARLS of ANGUS ( UMFRAVILLE) 11. D. EARLS of ANGUS (STEWART) 18. E. EARLS of ANGUS ( DOUGLAS) ...

UNTITLED ENGLISH NOBILITY D-K

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3D-K.htm

untitled ENGLISH NOBILITY D - K. v3.6 Updated 19 April 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. DAMMARTIN. 3. DOVER. 19. DUNSTANVILLE. 24. ENGAINE. 31. ESSEX. 41. EWIAS. 45. FALAISE. 50. FAMILY of HERBERT FitzHENRY, the CHAMBERLAIN. 52. FAUCOMBERGE. 67. FERRERS. 70.

SCOTTISH EARLS 1162-1396

fmg.ac/Projects/.../SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20LATER.htm

WILLIAM de Ross (-Earl's Allan May 1274). "…W. filio F. comitis de Ros" witnessed the charter dated 12 Sep 1232 which records an agreement between the bishop of Moray and "Gylbertum filium Gylberti quondam comitis de Stratheren" concerning "dimidiam dauacha de Kyncarny"[21]. He succeeded his father in 1251 as ...

ENGLAND EARLS 1067-1122

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm

england, earls created 1067-1122. v3.6 Updated 18 November 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. INTRODUCTION. 3. Chapter 1. CHESTER. 5. A. EARL of CHESTER 1070-1071. 5. B. EARLS of CHESTER 1071-1120 ( AVRANCHES) 7. C. EARLS of CHESTER 1120-1232 (family of RANULF "le Meschin") ...

SCOTLAND KINGS

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

SCOTLAND, KINGS. v4.0 Updated 16 November 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. INTRODUCTION. 2. Chapter 1. ORIGINS, KINGS of SCOTLAND 834-1034. 5. Chapter 2. KINGS of STRATHCLYDE. 27. Chapter 3. KINGS of SCOTLAND (DUNKELD) 30. A. ORIGINS.. 30. B. KINGS OF SCOTLAND ...

UNTITLED ENGLISH NOBILITY L-O

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3L-O.htm

untitled ENGLISH NOBILITY L - O. v3.7 Updated 18 November 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. LACY. 2. LA HAYE. 13. LA MARE. 19. LANCASTER. 23. LANGETOT. 39. LANVALAY. 42. LAVAL. 52. LESTRANGE. 55. LIMESEY. 66. LINCOLN. 73. LISLE. 79. LUCY. 80. MALET. 90. MAMINOT. 105.

SCOTLAND UNTITLED NOBILITY

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20UNTITLED.htm

David II King of Scoltand granted "the whole land of Glenurquhay" to "Mariote of Glenurquhay, daughter of John of Glenurquhay and spouse of John Campbell" by charter dated 5 Apr 1358[158]. d) ALICE Campbell (-after 13 Jun 1371). m ALLAN Lauder of Hatton. 2. DUGAL Campbell (-after 3 Aug 1323). Robertson indexes ...

.. Allen brought up

powered byCustom Search

BRITTANY - DUKES

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BRITTANY.htm

BRittany. DUKES of brittanY. v4.1 Updated 19 November 2017. RETURN TO INDEX · RETURN TO BRITTANY INTRODUCTION. TABLE OF CONTENTS. Chapter 1. DUKES of BRITTANY 831-1213. 1. A. DUKES of BRITTANY 831-907. 2. B. DUKES of BRITTANY 938-952 (FAMILY of COMTES de POHER) 11. C. DUKES of ...

SCOTLAND KINGS

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

SCOTLAND, KINGS. v4.0 Updated 16 November 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. INTRODUCTION. 2. Chapter 1. ORIGINS, KINGS of SCOTLAND 834-1034. 5. Chapter 2. KINGS of STRATHCLYDE. 27. Chapter 3. KINGS of SCOTLAND (DUNKELD) 30. A. ORIGINS.. 30. B. KINGS OF SCOTLAND ...

UNTITLED ENGLISH NOBILITY A-C

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm

untitled ENGLISH NOBILITY A - C. v3.7 Updated 19 April 2017. RETURN TO INDEX. TABLE OF CONTENTS. INTRODUCTION. 3. ABITOT. 4. AINCOURT ( DEINCOURT) 11. ALBINI (AUBIGNY) 17. AMUNDEVILLE. 24. ATON. 32. AVENELL. 37. AVRANCHES. 42. BADLESMERE. 45. BARDOLF. 47. BASKERVILLE. 56.

 

---

Hi Laura

Lots to go through on your last post! Thanks. It will keep me busy for a while.

---

Sorry I did not have time to do a deep dive for you.  There may be something of interest lurking in among those.  I wonder if it is an earlier version of the surname.

---

Hi Laura, I think it was a time when surnames were spelt in lots of different ways. It just makes life (or research) just that bit more complicated! That post mortem inquisitions website is great. I hadn't seen that before. I'm not sure that there is anything relevant in this case, but its an excellent resource.

---

Just came across this IPM for a John Alleyn jr, gent, d 1558, father of Edmund age 19.

https://archive.org/stream/genealogist09selb#page/n112/

Could be relevant to the Essex Alleyns

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Allen-4714

 

 

---

I think the “temp” Henry IV comment is just a typo for contemporary of Henry as it gives the correct years of his reign.

Answer 2

Not sure if this will help because I have not gone through the whole discussion but there was a John Alleyne of Bury St Edmunds who was a Baron of the Exchequer and had a PCC will in 1513. He married Constance Gedding, the daughter and heiress of William Gedding (a descendent of King John). Looking at the Suffolk Vistitation, and also Biographica Juridica, it appears that the ancestry of John Aleyn is unknown. He was Baron of the Exchequer but he apparently worked his way up from being a clerk in the exchequer. Concerning his wife however, parts of this line is listed by Douglas Richardson because of its royal descent. For the Geddinges see Gage's history of Thingoe Hundred.

Answer 3

Rye's Norfolk families mentions:

1. A John Aleyn of Tacolneston in 1375 bore a bend lozengy. Reference is to Brit. Mus. Seals 6804.

2. A pedigree for Allen of Earlham beginning with Robert Allen d. 1436 is in "Norris' Pedigrees" p.5. A Robert Allin subscribed 20 pounds towards the defence of the county in 1588.

Comments

Thanks Andrew for your contributions to the discussion. I'm not familiar with Norris Pedigrees. Is it available online? I'm not sure if I've found the will for John Alleyne, Is it the one for John Alen wp  3 Jun 1512? Sadly, I'm struggling to read it... always the problem with those early wills. I need to improve my transcribing skills. But I'll keep working on it. Not sure if its relevant to the family I have posted about, but useful anyway!

---

Hi Gillian, the Norris pedigrees are one of those old collections you sometimes see referenced in such works. Various publications will have used them. Best is to try google and you'll find various references.

---

Looks like Walter Rye was in a uniquely good position for consulting Norris's pedigrees

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Norris,_Antony_(DNB00)