What should we call the image on the trail to the Surety Barons?

Question

For the Magna Carta Project, there is a section we have been calling the Magna Carta Template Trail. It is an image applied to profiles in the lines leading from Gateway ancestors to their Surety Baron Ancestors. The description and how to use it is on this page.

I wonder if we need a different name for the image and the trail of images. Perhaps calling it a template has been not descriptive enough - its use is more on the order of a seal of approval. It is to indicate that the profile is correct and documented by Douglas Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestors. It also enables anyone to trace through each generation up to a surety baron for those lines where it has already been established. So calling it a Surety Baron Trail and a seal might be more descriptive than calling it a Magna Carta template trail.

Here is an example of a completed trail from a Gateway Ancestor to the documented Surety Baron.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated.

 

 

 

Comments

Is there an image that distinguishes a gateway ancestor from others in the line? Or am I misunderstanding and the image is ONLY used on the gateway ancestor?

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The image that says 'This person is a descendant of a Magna Carta surety baron.' is the same on the Gateway Ancestor and their lineage up to their Magna Carta Ancestor, where it says Magna Carta Surety Baron (in red), and "This profile is being maintained by the Magna Carta Project."

The difference is that the Gateway Ancestor has a category on it, which is "Gateway Ancestors". So far we have linked 200 of the names on Richardson's list to their WikiTree profiles.

This does not mean we are near the end of the project, because only a few of those names have had "This person is a descendant of a Magna Carta surety Baron"  and image attached to their lineage up to the baron's profile. It is our purpose to clean up each of those generations, merging duplicates and resolving conflicts, using Richardsons' 'Magna Carta Ancestry" 2011 as a guide.

June 2015 is the 800th Anniversary of Magna Carta, and the project goal is to complete as much of the work as possible by that date. We hope that family tree enthusiasts searching the Interent for their connections to Magna Carta will be able to find their answers here on WikiTree.

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Thanks, April. Great project. Good luck!

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Understanding needed....FitzAlan-29 is listed as "This person is a descendant of a Magna Carta surety baron."   None of his ancestors are referenced to the Surety Barons,  Was -29 one of the surety barons, or if not who was?

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Sir Richard FitzAlan is descended on his mother's side from both Robert de Vere and Saher de Quincy, both of them Magna Carta surety barons.

He is descended on his father's side from William Marshal, who was chief advisor to King John, and later Regent for John's young son, Henry III.

It is possible the Magna Carta templates are not yet in place on FitzAlan's ancestors to indicate the path to the surety barons.

Answer 1

How about a "Magna Carta Descendant" badge that states "this profile has been identified by the Magna Carta Project as a known Magna Carta descendant who is an ancestor of a known gateway ancestor"? Hard to think of an answer that conveys both MC descandant and ancestor to a gateway ancestor in a catchy phrase! In that case, I would go with clear information.

Comments

Hi P - You've gone straight to the heart of the matter. I was too close to the trees to see the forest.

"Magna Carta Descendant" badge is exactly what it is, and the other phrase I was looking for, what to call a lineage marked with those badges - would be

"Magna Carta Descendant Lineage".

Thank you for your ideas.

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April, how would these two be different?

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Sorry for the confusion Jillaine. Your question is appropriate.

The 'badge' (template) is placed on an individual profile. The ''lineage'' is how I think of the entire group of individuals between the Gateway Ancestor and the Magna Carta surety baron. The distinction is just a way to describe one profile versus the line of ancestors. (I'm sure lineage has a specific genealogical meaning and if I am abusing the definition, please help me Jillaine.)

The reason I asked for help in considering the terminology to use, is that I want to be sure explanations on pages for the template, etc. are clear. My original internal picture of a "trail of templates", (like the trail of breadcrumbs in the fairy tale) might not connect with everyone. So I needed input on how others would think of this template trail and the way to describe it.

Thank you to everyone who has generously offered your thoughts in response. You have enabled me to break through to better communication on the Magna Carta pages.

One of the missing pieces on the page for the Magna Carta Template has been that persons using the template add text under it:

"(name of profile) is a descendant of Magna Carta Surety Baron (name of baron linked to baron's profile).

This will strengthen understanding of the connection between the Gateway Ancestors and the Magna Carta barons.

Magna Carta Project started just eight months ago, and members have already added the Gateway Ancestors Category to over 200 Colonial immigrants. But the greatest part of the work is efforts given to merge duplicates, untangle family relationships, add sources, and improve the biographies.

Anyone interested in Magna Carta and the early colonization of America, and who has the Pre-1700 Certified Badge, some experience working with Colonial trees (understand the changes in the calendar, etc.) and is willing to work with sources is very welcome to join the project. See Magna Carta Project for details.

 

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I figured that's what you might be getting at, but wanted to be sure.

I am so NOT involved in this project, so take it for what it's worth, but my logic, if I were LOOKING for said people, I would look for:

a) a badge/template for the Magna Carta "gateway" person-- i.e., the immigrant to the colonies (do you have a time frame?) who, IF you can prove descendancy from that person, makes you also a descendant of one of the Magna Carta signers;

b) a "badge" or template or whatever, for anyone "back up the tree" (i.e., going back into the past from the gateway perosn), back to the Magna Carta signer. But would that be too many people? And then anyone who can provide descendancy from any of those people-- whether or not they emigrated to the New World, could also claim descendancy from the Barons..

Is that what you're looking for?

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Yes exactly, Jillaine!

We have not differentiated the ''template'' for a) and b) - it is identical in both cases.

We have added a ''Category:Gateway Ancestors'' to the gateway person.

What I have learned in this project is that people think of the same concept in different ways, so I've been working on getting the most accurate, least confusing, most specific description of the terms to use on the Magna Carta project.

For example, it turns out that ''Gateway Ancestor'' may be considered to mean a gateway to royal ancestors, and our project means it as a gateway to Magna Carta Ancestors. I have been making the difference explicit in the project pages.

Most of the Gateway Ancestors are from the 17th century, and a few are from 1701, according to Richardsons's "Purpose and Scope". There isn't a narrow time frame, like for Puritan Great Migration, but requrements are narrow in that the lineage to Magna Carta barons must be documented.  Many more are descended from surety barons than those we are working with in our project, but documenting them is harder. We have the "Potential Gateway Ancestors" page where members can post lineages they have documented.

Yes the number of ancestor profiles would be very large, but it is diminshed by converging lineages (noted as such by Richardson). Those Medieval barons kept the property, wealth and power "in the family" so to speak. Intermarriage among the families decreases the potential number of individuals in the tree as the branches weave back together.

I would be delighted for anyone who is a descendant of those who did not migrate to the New World, to join the project and work on the profiles earlier than the Gateway immigrants, where their tree joins the Magna Carta descendants. (But being a descendant is not required for the project.)

There is a misapprehension that the project requires descendancy from a Gateway Ancestor. No, just interest in the project is sufficient, and descendancy from one of the Magna Carta descendant profiles is a bonus.

I appreciate your questions Jillaine, they always create clarity.

Answer 2

The first thing that comes to mind is a seal of certification or confirmation (of documented descent).

Comments

Eek I accidentally down-voted your answer instead of voting it up. I'm using my phone... Sorry!  I agree fully though. Seal of certification/approval sounds right to me.

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Thank you Darlene I like both of those phrases.