I don't understand this profile

Question

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Russia-12

How can this be a profile?

Comments

Hi Lana H., 

It may be easier to understand Russia-12 within the context of her husand's profile. See Sviatoslav I Kiev / Kiev-20

Hope this helps.--GeneJ

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But to list her as last name "Russia" is really strange.  If she doesn't have a name,  she should not have a profile, should she?  She should be listed in her husband's bio if she has no name.  All queens in history had a name.

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I agree Lana. This changing/modifying names to suit a 21st century program is wrong. On one hand we are told to be accurate, yet on the other this inaccuracy is condoned. ?

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Considering this is a profile that was uploaded in 2011 and not really been updated since (except for GeneJ recently cleaning up the bio), I don't think it's really accurate to say that we "condone" anything about it. It doesn't conform to European Aristocrat project standards.

According to Wikipedia, Sviatoslav I had a wife named Malusha, and maybe another one whose name isn't known, but there's no mention of a Debrima. So I'm not sure what to do with this profile at the moment.

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Hi Nicky and Lana,

I am not familiar with the research about Russia-12, but between her profile and that of her husband, there are probably a number of interested profile managers or others on the trusted lists.

if you believe the naming convention applied to Russia-12 (or the profile itself) could be improved upon, consider posting a G2G specific to the name (or conflicted information) on the profile. Include suggestions about how to improve the name, etc. and seek input from other collaborators.  

Were it me, I'd probably link a G2G about her name/identity to her husband's profile (Kiev-20), then use a bulletin board post on her profile to notice the same G2G.

Hope this helps.  --GeneJ

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The lady had a name besides just "Queen".  What did they call her?  If her name  isn't known, she should not have a profile of her own, IMO.  

Wife of the duke" from Debrima, Russia who, for some reason has the title of "Queen"?  Did Debrima, Russia even have their own queen, really?  Where WAS Debrima, Russia?  Or was Debrima her name?

Another of his wives was supposedly Duchess Malusha von Lübeck.  Now THAT follows proper naming convention at the time.  Queen of Debrima Russia follows no naming convention at all. And to have her last name at birth as "Russia" is just very strange.

I would not be able to get away with that for any of my female ancestors... no name except "Mrs Smith, wife of the mayor", no ancestors or descendants listed, just a guess at her birthdate, nothing except who she was purportedly married to.  And, since no sources are listed, this is rather doubtful family history!

"...if you believe the naming convention applied to Russia-12 (or the profile itself) could be improved upon, consider posting a G2G specific to the name (or conflicted information) on the profile. Include suggestions about how to improve the name, etc. and seek input from other collaborators."

My suggestion is that she should not have a profile at all because she does not have a name, and some kind of supposed royalty doesn't change that. 

Profiles like this are just an embarrasment to WikiTree, IMO. 

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Charles Cawley in Medieval Lands names Dobrinya as the sister of Malusha, but there is nothing else about her.  I'm guessing that could be where the name Debrima originates.

See here http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm#Sviatoslavdied972A

Cawley does note, that much of the early Rurikid dynasty is based on a later document and the genealogy may not be factual.  

Perhaps even Malusha and her parentage may be 'invented' to fill in gaps in the genealogy.

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Hi  Lianne.

It is condonned - its like double standards. For example the surname 'Pippinids' being attributed to descendants of Pepin of Landen so the profiles 'work' with the 21st WikiTree program. That was not their name at birth. If we can't be correct about names we should not adjust/change/add to them to make it work. It is wrong. What needs to be adjusted is the program, never the names. Its disrespectful.

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Hi GeneJ X,

The subject has been raised in here so do we really need another thread on it? As for suggestions mine would be to stick to original names, and if people can't be added to WikiTree because the program won't accept the original name ... change the program. 

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Hi NIcky Newman,

There's always room for another G2G. :-) Good idea.

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In the case of the mysterious queen above, she did not apparently have a name.  So it is not possible to change the program to accept her original name, since there wasn't one.

There really is quite a difference between Dobrinya and Debrima.  They both start with D and end in A, that's the only similarity.

My original question:  Why is there a profile on this nameless unknown lady?

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I just did a bit more checking and my mistake - Dobrinya is actually a male, the brother of Malusha, and not her sister

Answer 1

There are probably about 300 million people in Ancestral File etc showing as Mrs Mary Brown etc, because their maiden name wasn't known, and they've been gedcommed in and are now on Wikitree with their married name as their LNAB.  And only the PM can change it.

As for Debrima, looks like she may be in a book called Royal Ancestors of some LDS Families, that I expect we'll hear more of.  But the whole Kiev line is basically just a Norse saga anyway.  There are umpteen different ways of handling the inconsistencies and filling the gaps.

Comments

The work Royal Ancestors of some LDS families is accessible via the Family History Library Catalog. Appears viewing and downloading is available for the 1972 book as well as supplements B-E. 

Royal Ancestors of some LDS families

Update: She appeas as "Debrima" on chart no. 412* (p. 162) No dates are provided; her spouse is "Sviatoslav, Grand Duke of /Kiev/.  (*My pdf view reads this as page 161 of 270 in the main work.)

Again onchart 514 (p. 204*), also  as the spouse of the Grand Duke; again her name is Debrima. Birth is "about 915". (My pdf viewer has this as page 203 of 270.)

These charts appear in the chapter, "Royal Line Pedigree Charts." 

I did not identify any references on the charts; perhaps these were provided elsewhere in the work. 

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There is a note on sources on page 120 of the work, which states that the "major source of information ... is the Archive and Temple records of the LDS Church"

There is also mention of work by the genealogical society (not sure from where) and reliance on other sources (not named).  There is also mention of two particular researchers.

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Thanks, John Atkinson. Good work.