Randle (Thornton) de Thornton (abt. 1189 - bef. 1244)

Born about 1189 in Thornton, Cheshire, England

Husband of Avice (Kingsley) de Thornton — married about 1210 in Cheshire, England [uncertain]

Descendants

Died before 1244 before about age 55 in Thornton, Cheshire, England

Problems/Questions Profile manager: Jack Day [send private message]

Disambiguation

There is more than one Randle or Ranulph de Thorneton, and they can be confused:

• Randle, (Thornton-475) born about 1189, son and heir of Peter the Clerk de Malpas, married Amicia Kingsley, b. 1210. Assumed name le Roter. Parents of Randolph, Alice, Peter and Cecily.
• Randle or Randolph Thornton, born 1225, son of Randle Thornton. Rector of Thornton. Brother of Alice, Peter and Cecily. No current links on WikiTree to spouse or children.
• Ranulph or Randle le Roter de Thorneton, born 1257, son of Peter and Matilda and grandson of Randle. Age 22 at his father's IPM. Married Katherine, born 1266, daughter of Urian de St. Pierre.

Biography

Randulph Thornton was a member of the aristocracy in England.

Birth and Parents

Ormerod shows Randle as the son and heir of Peter le Clerc.,^[1] who was secretary of Randle Blundeville, Earl of Chester.^[2]

Boyer also shows this Randle as son and heir of Peter le Clerk, Lord of Thorneton. ^[3]

Birth Year and Time Line Estimation

Randle's birth year of 1189 is estimated based on the assumption that Patrick is the elder brother and Randle was born 2 years later. Patrick's birth is calculated from the fact that his father Peter wrote a charter giving lands to Patrick within a specific time period. See Peter's profile for discussion.

Randle is named as a godson of Randle, Earl of Chester (1170-1232), so Randle's birth would have occurred between the date of Earl Randle's majority, 1188, or his return from France, 1204, and his death, 1232.

Randle's father's timeline

Below is the timeline from Randle's father's profile, with additions for Randle's life in italics:

• Peter was Secretary to Randle Blundeville, Earl of Chester, who was in office 1181-1232. Therefore Peter "flourished" during this period.
• If Peter was the "Peter the clerk" who drafted the famous Amicia charter of Hugh II ^[4]
• The charters in which Peter's name appears fall in the period 1194-1228, with many falling in the narrower period 1200-1208.
• This alone might suggest that Peter flourished beginning in 1194, and if aged 24 at the time might have been born, say, 1170.

However, at least two of the charters refer to Patrick, an adult son of Peter. If those charters fell at the end of the narrow period, say, 1208, and Patrick was aged 21 at the time, Patrick would have been born, say, 1187, his parents married no later than 1186, and Peter himself born no later than 1165. He could in fact have been born earlier than 1165, and has been given a birth year of 1150, which is plausible.

An 1150 birth year would make Peter 37 when Randle de Blundeville became Earl. If Peter did not die before Randle de Blundeville, Peter would have been 82 when Randle died.

Below is a hypothetical timeline assuing Peter's birth in 1165. Only the events in bold are confirmed dates:

• 1165 birth
• 1181 Earl Randle assumes office
• 1183 age 18 -- Peter begins clerking
• 1186 age 21 -- Peter marries
• 1187 eldest son Patrick born
• 1189 Randle born -- godson of Earl Randle
• 1191 Agnes born
• 1194 Peter's name first appears in documents
• 1200 age 345 -- confirmation of Thornton grant
• 1200-1208 Majority of charters naming Peter.
• 1208 eldest son Patrick age 21 -- named in charters.
• 1210 Randle aged 21 -- marries Amicia
• 1226 Peter named in Amicia charter. Age 61
• 1228 last appearance of Peter's name in charters.

1208 Lived

Boyer states that Randle lived during the times of Philip de Orreby and Sir John de Grey, justices. ^[3] Philip de Orreby was justice of Chester from 10 King John (1208) to 13 Henry 3 (1228)^[1]

Asssumed Names

Ormerod states that Randle assumed the name of Le Roter, and also the name of Thornton from his place of residence, and is sometimes designated by both. ^[1]

Randle was termed the godson of Randle, Earl of Chester, in the confirmation alienating Thornton from Peter, his father, to him. ^[1]

Boyer refers to him as Sir Ranulph le Roter, alias de Thorneton. ^[3]

1215 Marriage

Ormerod states that Randle married Amicia, daughter of Richard de Kingsley, and sister and coheiress of Randle de Kingsley, Richard's son. ^[2]

Boyer agrees that Randle married Avice (or Amicia) de Kingsley, daughter of Richard, Lord of Kingslegh, and sister and coheir of Ranulph de Kingslegh. ^[3]

The estimated date of the marriage is based on the estimated births of the children.

1244: Randle's Death

Randle died before the 28th of Henry III (so before 28 October 1243, that being the date Amice was referred to as a widow in a charter.^[1][2][3]

The solid date around which estimates must cluster is the a deed bearing the date of the 28th of Henry III (1243-1244), in which Henry Done gives one bovatre of land in Kingsley to Amicia, who is then Randle's widow. From this we know that Randle died before 1244, but we do not know how much before, and we know that Amicia survived him, but we do not know for how long. ^[5]

1244 Amicia Widow

Amicia was Randle's widow by the 28th of Henry III (1244) when she was identified in a deed by which Henry Done gives her a bovate of land in Kingsley. ^[1]

At the time of her daughter's marriage, by another deed but without date, Amicia, widow of this Randle, gives lands in Crowton to David, son of Philip de Malpas, "in frank marriage" with Cecilia, her daughter. ^{[5][1] [5]} Boyer has Cecelia's birth year as 1198, which would make Amicia's own birth not later than, say, 1180.

Boyer states that Amicia was living in 1279, and perhaps 2 Edward II (1308-1309) ^[3]. The exceptionally long life this would require suggests the presence of an error at some point.

1215 Issue

Ormerod in his genealogical table Thornton of Thornton Cite error 3; Invalid <ref> tag; invalid names, e.g. too many Sir Peter le Roter de Thornton, knt, ob 8 Edw I, married Matilda, daughter of Richard, son of William le Clerc, of Chester. ^[2] Peter's IPM was 26 November 8 Edward I (1279), giving Peter's son Randle a birth year of circa 1257. ^[6] His son Randle was aged 22 when Peter died. The IPM ^[6] identifies Randle's inheritance as manors of Honeston and Thoreton; knights fees at Kingslegh and Stanthrel; salt pit at Northwich; 2 bovates of land at Aston upon Wevre; messuages at Middlewich and Cestre.

1. Cecily or Cecelia, b. 1198, Thornton, d. 1290 Malpas. married David de Malpas ^[3] Cecelia, wife of David de Malpas. ^[2]
2. Alice, married Richard de Hellesby. Alice is shown as a daughter by Boyer ^{[3] [2]} George Ormerod, both in his narrative ^[7] and in his pedigree table ^[8] describes Alice as "sister of Ranulph de Thorneton, and daughter of sir Ranulph, a widow in 1268.
3. Randle, born 1186 in Lancashire. (Birthplace questionable), rector of Thorneton 52 Hen III (1277-1278) ^[3] Randle, brother of Peter, rector of Thornton 52 Hen III. ^[2]
4. Richard, prob. the Abbot of Stanlaw, who died 1269 ^[3] Richard, 52 Hen III. ^[2] (1267-1268)
5. Alan of Halton, probable son, shown by Boyer^[3] but not by Ormerod. ^[2]

Randle was previously shown on WikiTree as the father of Sir Allen de Thornton, born 1225. No source has been found for this relationship and it has been disconnected.

Research Notes

Did Randle have a daughter Margery?

Some accounts show Randle and Amicia as the parents of a daughter [][Thornton-2684|Margery]] who married William de Brereton. Ormerod ^[9] shows Margery as the daughter of a Randle de Thornton but does not specify which Randle; and in the list above ^[2] Margery is not included.

Margery has therefore been de-linked as a daughter of this Randle.

Sources

Citations

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6} Ormerod, 1819, II, 14
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 2.9} Ormerod, 1819, II, 16. Citing Harl. MS 2119, 2032, 1535, and Chesh. Ped. Coll. Arm. Accessed June 24, 2018 jhd
3. ↑ ^{3.00 3.01 3.02 3.03 3.04 3.05 3.06 3.07 3.08 3.09 3.10} Carl Boyer 3rd. Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans. By the author: Santa Clarita, California, 2001. Ranulph le Roter is #2 on page 239.
4. ↑ Ormerod iii, 226
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1 5.2} Ormerod, 15
6. ↑ ^{6.0 6.1} Public Records Office. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume II, Edward I. #360 Peter de Thurneton London: His Majesty's Stationary Office, 1906. Accessed 20 November 2020 jhd
7. ↑ Ormerod, Helsby 1882 Edition, Volume II, Edisbury Hundred, page 63
8. ↑ Ormerod, Helsby 1882 Edition, Volume II, Hellesby of Hellesby, page 72
9. ↑ Ormerod, 1819, II, 51

Bibliography of Frequently Cited References

• George Ormerod, 1819. The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester... Volume II, Containing the Hundreds of Edisbury, Wirral, and Broxton. London, Lackington, Hughes, Harding, Mavor and Jones: 1818. Malpas Thornton of Thornton Pedigree. Volume II, pages 214-216. Accessed June 24, 2018 jhd
• Ormerod, George. The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester, Second Edition, Revised and Enlarged by Thomas Helsby. Volume II Containing the Hundreds of Edisbury, Wirral and Broxton Published in 1882, London, England, by George Routledge and Sons.