Joan (Clare) de Clare (abt. 1185)

Ancestors

Wife of Rhys Gryg ap Rhys — married 1219 in Deheubarth, Wales

Descendants

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See Disambiguation (below).

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Biography

A daughter of Richard de Clare and Amice of Gloucester married "Rhys the Hoarse" as his second wife in 1219.^[1][2][3]

She is thought to have been born about 1185/90.^[4]

Rhys's known children include Rhys (by his unknown first wife),^[1] and Maredudd and Hywell by his second wife ("[?Joan]" de Clare).^[5][6]

Research Notes

Richardson lists "Maud" and "[?Joan]" as two separate daughters of Richard de Clare and Amice of Gloucester, with Maud married to William de Brewes and Joan married to Rhys.^[5] Cawley suggests that the same woman married them both.^[4]

Apparently a Welsh chronicle [Chronicle of the Princes of Wales] states that Rhys Gryg married the daughter of the Earl of Clare and that is the limit of our knowledge.^[7] She is given a name only in late writings. It has been suggested that she may have been illegitimate.

Cawley proposes that Rhys was the second husband of Maud de Clare, on the presumption that William Braose's wife Maud was indeed a Clare, though that is uncertain. William died at Corfe in 1210.^[4]

Richardson

Richardson shows the second wife of Rhys as "[?Joan"].^[2] He shows Maud, wife of William de Brewes, separately.^[8] Richardson lists Maredudd and Hywell as Joan's children.^[2]

Cawley

Cawley shows the second wife of Rhys as "Matilda [Joan]", the widow of William de Brewes, and possibly the mother of Maredudd and Hywell:^[9]

Rhys Gryg married (2) '[as her second husband,] MATILDA [Joan] de Clare, [widow of WILLIAM de Briouse,] daughter of RICHARD de Clare Earl of Hertford & his wife Amice of Gloucester ([1185/90]-). The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Rhys the Hoarse married the daughter of the earl of Clare" in 1219.... Rhys & his [first/second] wife had two children:' Maredudd and Hywel.^[1]

Disambiguation

To reiterate the above:

'The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Rhys the Hoarse married the daughter of the earl of Clare" in 1219.'^[1]

Some sources name this daughter Maud and others name her Joan. Cawley and some others are inclined to treat Maud and Joan as one person. Richardson treats them as two different persons.^[2][8][10] Following Richardson,^[11]

• Maud de Clare is not married to Rhys Gryg.^[8]
• Maud's sister, [?Joan] de Clare, is married to Rhys Gryg.^[2]

Note: Matilda is Latin for Maud.^[12]

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3} Cawley. Entry for Rhys Gryg/the Hoarse (accessed 14 November 2019).
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4} Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City: the author, 2013), volume II, page 183 CLARE 5.vii.
3. ↑ Another researcher of medieval Welsh families, Darrell Wolcott, in "The Children of Lord Rhys" (accessed 15 November 2019), has her born "c.1180" and says that Rhys married "as his first wife a daughter of Gilbert de Clare III," citing "ByT 1219". But that source says of the 1219 marriage only that "Rhys the Hoarse married the daughter of the earl of Clare" (see Brut y Tywysogion, acessed 15 November 2019).
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1 4.2} Cawley. Entry for Matilda [Joan] de Clare ([1185/90]-) (accessed 14 November 2019).
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1} Douglas Richardson. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham, 2nd edition (Salt Lake City: the author, 2011), volume I, page 449, CLARE 1.
6. ↑ Both Richardson and Cawley say Rhys Gryg's second wife is a de Clare. Bartrum (Rhys ap Tewdwr 8) shows 16 children, with his first wife, Ellyw f. Thomas, mother of his son Rhys (see her profile for more information) and Maredudd's mother as possibly a third wife, Gwenllion ferch Elidir ab Owain.
7. ↑ Brut y Tywysogion: Or, The Chronicle Of The Princes Of Wales (Cambridge Library Collection - Rolls). See amazon.com.
8. ↑ ^{8.0 8.1 8.2} Richardson, Royal Ancestry, II:183 CLARE 5.v.
9. ↑ Note: Cawley places brackets around information he is unsure of. The bracketed information in the Cawley quotation is not information added to the quote but is what Cawley shows. (In USA editing, bracketed material in a quote would normally indicate that the bracketed information had been added to the quoted material.)
10. ↑ Cawley and Richardson are cited in this profile. See Maud's profile for others.
11. ↑ Following Richardson because the father attached to both Maud and Jane, Richard de Clare, is a surety baron whose profile is managed by the Magna Carta Project. The Magna Carta Project's policy is to follow Richardson when derivitive sources conflict. Magna Carta Project Policy and Procedures addresses parent/child relationships. The project's Checklist specifically the issue of conflicting information (see this section of the Checklist).
12. ↑ In this SGM discussion, Richardson states "Matilda is Latin for Maud and should be avoided." Which explains why he does not refer to Maud as Matilda.

• Cawley, Charles. "Medieval Lands": A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.
• Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Salt Lake City: the author, 2013. See also WikiTree's source page for Royal Ancestry.
• Richardson, Douglas. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011. See also WikiTree's source page for Magna Carta Ancestry.