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Alys (Unknown) Perkins (abt. 1475 - bef. 1538)

Alys (Alice) Perkins formerly [surname unknown]
Born about in Warwickshire, Englandmap
Daughter of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Wife of — married about 1500 in Hillmorton, Warwickshire, Englandmap [uncertain]
Descendants descendants
Died before before about age 63 in Hillmorton, Warwickshire, Englandmap
Problems/Questions Profile manager: Clyde Perkins private message [send private message]
Profile last modified | Created 19 Apr 2011
This page has been accessed 1,211 times.
There are disproven, disputed, or competing theories about this person's parents. See the text for details.
The Birth and Marriage Dates are a rough estimate. See the text for details.

Contents

Biography

Origins

Despite many claims, the parentage of Alys/Alice is not known. Alice Perkins is often claimed online and in unsourced secondary sources to be Alice de Astley.[1][2][3] There is no proof found for these claims. See research notes, below.

Alice's date of birth, place of birth and parents are unknown. Her birth year is estimated to be about 1475, based on the estimated birth dates of her children (about 1500). Her birth place is also a guess: it is listed above as Hillmorton, Warwickshire, because that was the place she was buried. She may very well have been born elsewhere.

Marriage and Children

Alice married Thomas Perkins, probably about 1500 based on their children's estimated births. Exactly when and where they married is unknown.

What is known about Thomas Perkins and his wife Alys comes from their wills. Thomas left a will dated 3 April 1528 and proved 21 April 1528.[4] Alice's will was proved 15 October 1538[5][6] (dated 31 July 1538).[7][8] In their wills, Thomas and Alice named their three children. By the time Alice made her will, her daughters were married.[5] Their children were:

Possible child of the couple:

  • Elizabeth, who was not named in the wills of Thomas or Alice, but an unidentified Elizabeth is buried in their possible tomb at St. John the Baptist: "Here lyeth Thomas Perkins and Alice and Elizabeth"[6]

Burial

Thomas and Alys likely died in Hillmorton, Warwickshire, where both of their wills directed burial. No burial record is found for either of them.

In St. John the Baptist Church at Hillmorton Parish, in the side aisle, on the right facing the altar, are life-sized effigies of Thomas and Edith de Astley who lived in the 14th century. According to the Vicar of St. John they are the forebears of Alice de Astley who is said to have married Thomas Perkins, whose will directed that he "be buried in the Church of St. John the Baptist before the Rood."[6] There is no source given for which Vicar stated this and when, nor any basis for how he would have that knowledge.

Dugdale writing in the 17th century described a grave and inscription found in the Church of St. John, Hillmorton at this time. "In the middle ile of this Church are two gravestones of marble, each of them having small portraitures in brass of a man and a woman, with divers children; on one of them is this Inscription: Here lyeth Thomas Perkins and Alice and Elizabeth, Our Lord save their souls from everlasting death. Amen."[9] This memorial, however, may refer to Thomas' grandson Thomas, who also had a wife named Alice;[5] however they did not have a known daughter, Elizabeth.

A modern survey says that the church was extensively restored in the 18th century, the majority of the flooring is now parquet. There are no recorded floor memorials in the church today. This same survey describes the Astley effigies as "the defaced figure of a knight, probably Thomas de Astley, and a woman, probably his wife Margaret".[10]

Will

The will of Alice Perkins of Hillmorton reads as follows:[2][5][6]

In the name of God Amen the last day of July in the year of our Lord God MCCCCCXXXVIII. I, Alice Perkins of Hillmorton in the county of Warwick, dreading the certain hour of death being in perfect memory mind, make this my last will in manner & form following. First, I bequeath my sould unto Almighty God, my lady Saint Mary & all the Saints in heaven to pray for me. My body to be buried within the parish church of Saint John the Baptist of Hillmorton aforesaid, my mortuary in main aisle. Also I bequeath to the high altar 12d. Also to the said church of Hillmorton 6s 8d. Also to every one of my godchildren 2d. Also to Jane Sleyter my daughter a pair of flaxen sheets, a pair of hurden sheets, a flaxen table cloth, a hurden table cloth, a tawny gown, a vilet kirtle, an hairoin, 3 kerchiefs, a cow & a yearlin bullock, and also to Julia Compton my daughter a pair of flaxen sheets, a pair of hurden sheets, a flaxen table cloth, and hurden table cloth, my best gown, a birnett tawny kirtle, 3 kerchiefs, a pair of beds, a pot, a pan and my silvered harness girdle. The residue of my goods, my debts paid & my funeral expenses deducted & allowed, I give unto Henry Perkins my son whim I make my sole executor, he to dispose for the health of my sole as he thinkith best. And of this my last will I ordain and Make John Stokes, clerk, Thomas Clerk & Richard Smyth supervisors, they to see that my last will be observed, performed & kept, these being witness: John Brendon, clerk, George Dobbs, William Freman, Thomas Dunkle, & Richard Bassett with diverse others.
The inventory, dated 10 Oct. 1538, was taken by: John Brendon, Clerke, Wm. Buttye, Wm. Freman, Thomas Dunkley, Edwd Twygare, appraisers.
Amount £36 2s. Id.
Proved at Lichfield, 15 October 1538, by Henry Perkins

Research Notes

Unknown Parents

The basis for the claim Alice was born into the Astley family is unknown despite much research and is likely incorrect. There are no wills, no baptisms, no marriage records, no contemporary pedigrees and no land records to suggest that she belongs to the Astley family of Hillmorton, Warwickshire. There are only two records in which she appears - the will of her husband (where she is called Alys) and her own will (where she is called Alice). There is nothing about these wills to even slightly suggest Alice was a member of the Astley family, who were still lords of the manor of Hillmorton in the early 16th century. In fact, the opposite is true as Thomas Perkins appears to have belonged to an entirely different social class.

Specifically among the claims made, Alice has been said to be a daughter of Thomas Astley of Patshull by his wife Margaret Butler. There is no evidence that this Thomas Astley had a daughter Alice, he lived in the wrong part of England, and was much too prominent for him to have had a daughter marry to Thomas Perkins.

It is also sometimes found that she was a daughter of Robert Astley and his wife Cecily. There is no evidence to support this.

Other trees claim that she was descended from Ralph De Ashley born about 1260. The basis for this claim is unknown despite much research and is likely incorrect.

Sources

  1. Hall, Kristin C.. Perkins Register Report (2004).
  2. 2.0 2.1 Perkins, D. W., comp. Notes on the Perkins Families in England. Salem, MA: 1894, p. 5. Archive.org.
  3. Lewis, Marlyn. Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins personal website. (Alys de Astley. Last Edited 4 Apr 2020 F, page 52 #1549), b. circa 1476, d. 1538.
  4. "Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860", database with images, FindMyPast Image - FindMyPast Transcription($): will of Thomas 1528, Hillmorton, Warwickshire. Registered wills and original wills, administrations and inventories, 1494-1860, and, act books, 1532-1638 for Diocese of Lichfield Episcopal Consistory Court.
  5. 5.0 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.6 Threfall, John Brooks. The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury and his wife Mary Perkins. Madison, WI: 1988. FamilySearch.org: Perkins-32.
  6. 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 Mortensen, Paula Perkins. English Origin of Six Early Colonists by the Name of Perkins. MA: Higgins Book Co., 1998, pp. 3-4. FamilySearch.org.
  7. "Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860", database with images, FindMyPast Image - FindMyPast Transcription($): will of Alice Perkyns, 1538, Hillmorton, Warwickshire.
  8. 8.0 8.1 8.2 8.3 Davis, Walter Goodwin. The Ancestry of Dudley Wildes 1759-1820 of Topsfield, Massachusetts. Portland, ME: The Anthoensen Press, 1959, pp. 81-90. Archive.org
  9. Dugdale, William, et al. The Antiquities of Warwickshire. London, 1656, p. 15. Archive books online
  10. Warwickshire County Council, Information for record number MWA3370: Church of St John the Baptist, Hillmorton government website




Comments: 12

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I was asked to take my concerns about a pre-1500 prefixed LNAB to G2G, I did and was correct that the prefix should be dropped. But, because her parents are not known I again asked G2G what the last name should become. There was significant opinion and discussion favoring both retaining "Astley" and changing it to "Unknown", There was general agreement that the Biography needed a great deal of work and some of the participants even raced to this profile to add sources and their arguments to her Biography while we were discussing it. I assume this was to sway opinion in their favor.

It is true that the only information I can identify and document is indirect and circumstantial evidence. Thomas and Alice Perkins apparently had enough pull to get themselves buried in the centre isle of a church which which had been supported by the Astley family for over 200 years. The church had beautiful (at least at one time) life sized statues in remembrance of an Astley Knight and his Lady. There are inscriptions in memorials commemorating Thomas Perkins, Alice and a daughter Elizabeth. And lastly, the Vicar of the church says that this Alice was Alice de Astley.  This is not proof but do I "suspect" her LNAB was (perhaps) Astley.

None of the PM’s participated in the G2G discussion so I have no clue why the name was changed to "Unknown". The Biography is an even more confusing mess than before. It explains nothing and the claim that the most recent sources are wrong is unproven. Have there been private communications that urged you to make this change? Is there a change in WikiTree policy? Are "suspected" names allowed or not allowed?

posted by Rodney Wood
The PMs aren't the only ones that follow the discussion. As a leader of the EuroAristo project, I've been closely following the discussion. Joe Cochoit and Helen Ford have provided information that there is no evidence of Alice's ancestry. In such situations, we go with Unknown for the LNAB. You posted it on G2G, it was discussed, evidence points towards her 'not' being an Astley. Most likely this is something that cropped up somewhere on the internet and people kept sharing the information, and next thing you know we 'know' that she somehow descends from a family -- even when there is nothing in the records to indicate such, and the lack of evidence strongly indicates that she is 'not' an Astley.
I appreciate Helen Ford’s comments the most but neither she nor Joe Cochoit provided information that there is no evidence of her Astley ancestry. Joe would have everyone think that the Mortensen book is worthless when it is actually more relevant and recent research. That kind of approach to Genealogy does much more harm than retaining a last name that might "perhaps" be true. A lack of evidence strongly indicates nothing and provides no clues about where to look. Joe actually cares nothing about Alice (??) Perkins because he doesn’t know who her ancestors are. I find that sad.

It seems obvious that the PM’s were listening to someone. What bothers me is that I was encouraged to take this journey on their behalf and have never heard from them again. You have done your job well and I hope it turns out well for WikiTree.

posted by Rodney Wood
Using a Last Name at Birth of "de Astley" has reconciled "Alys/Alice" to be separated from all of her paternal ancestors and alone on WikiTree forever. Even if her father is unknown, it is nearly certain that she was an "ASTLEY".

I believe that our convention is to eliminate prefixes in names like hers so it is hard to understand why Alice is the only remaining "de Astley" on WikiTree. Could a manager please change her LNAB to "ASTLEY".

posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Rodney Wood
Replied on G2G
posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Rodney Wood
Find a Grave citation does not appear to have anything to do with this person.
posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Robin Lee
a daughter, Alice, married to John Calthorp, Esq. and a daughter, Constantia, to whom he bequeaths 40l. his manor of Melton to his executors for 2 years, to perform his will, and his body to be buried in the church of the Carmes at Blakeney.

http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p52.htm#i1549 says Robert had this Alys.

If you accept that Alys is Roberts daughter, Through the Witchingham conection you can go back to Royalty.

posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Lloyd Anderson
British History Online says, "The manor was apparently held by the junior branch of the Astley family as the senior branch settled at Astley near Coventry, as in 1387 it was stated by Sir William de Astley, the last of the senior line, that Thomas de Astley, grandson of the Thomas mentioned above, held the manor ... William had been given the wardship of Thomas's son Thomas, who had been abducted by his mother Katherine (Bacon) and Thomas Grantewelle and John Huse, (fn. 26) but the end of the suit is not recorded.

British History Online Melton Constable says, "(Thomas de Astley) had John his son and heir, who took to wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Edward Witchingham; by his will, dated April 8, 1475, (fn. 5) and proved June 23 following, it appears that he had 2 sons, Thomas and (cont)

posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Lloyd Anderson
Can someone PLEASE disconnect Alys from Thomas? He isnt her father and i have posted a link on his page to show this...i keep finding relationships to cool people that I have and then I find out I am not actually related because of this ONE person being where they dont freaking belong! I have asked many times for this to be done and I am not sure why no one has even bothered to say anything back.
posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Darvana (Dennis) Tressler
(1) Despite many claims, the parentage of Alys is not known. However her ancestry is known. She is descended from Ralph De Ashley born about 1260.

Find a Grave (https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=50051948) shows that Alys and her husband Thomas Perkins are buried under the aisles of the Church of St. John the Baptist in Hillmorton. Ralph's father Thomas' effigy and sarcophagus are also in this church. British History Online (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/warks/vol6/pp108-114#h3-0002) states that Ralph was the ancestor of everyone in the Astley family which held the manor at Hillmorton in direct descent down to the end of the 18th century. Ralph's son Thomas was lord of Morton cum membris in 1316. Sometime after this the manor was apparently held by the junior branch of the Astley family as the senior branch settled at Astley near Coventry. The senior line went extinct sometime after 1387.

posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Lloyd Anderson
Alys is not the daughter of Thomas D'Asltey and Edith Constable:

Sir Thomas D' Astley who married Edith Constable died at the battle of Evesham in the 1265. He is not the father of the Alice who married Thomas Perkins in Hillmorton. The D'Astley family left Hillmorton when one of the sons married an heiress in Norfolk. They still owned it but the family seat was in Norfolk.

posted on De Astley-16 (merged) by Jonathon Myers

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Categories: Hillmorton, Warwickshire | Saint John the Baptist Church, Hillmorton, Warwickshire | Estimated Birth and Marriage Date