Lucy (Mercia) Meschines
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Lucia (Mercia) Meschines (bef. 1059 - 1141)

Lucia (Lucy) Meschines formerly Mercia aka Taillebois, Meschines, Roumare
Born before in Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Daughter of [uncertain] and [uncertain]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Wife of — married before 1084 [location unknown]
Wife of — married 1093 [location unknown]
Wife of — married about 1098 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died after age 82 in Englandmap
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Profile last modified | Created 1 Feb 2011
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Contents

Biography

Her origins have been the subject of much discussion. The most common modern position has been put forward strongly by Katherine S.B. Keats-Rohan, that she is daughter to the Anglo-Saxon sheriff Thorold of Lincolnshire, with a mother from the Anglo-Norman Malet family, who inter-married with the English aristocracy before 1066. Keats-Rohan argued that the medieval chronicles, which agree on many things, must have developed from a single confused "tradition".

According to Keats-Rohan it is unlikely that Beatrix, the daughter of her husband, was her daughter.[1]

Family

m.1 Ivo de Taillebois. Issue:
A subject of long debate which Keats-Rohan is not completely conclusive about is whether she was the mother of Ivo Taillebois' one known daughter Beatrix (Beatrice). According to Keats-Rohan the evidence does not rule it out, but in the pedigree she proposes she leaves room for an unknown earlier wife for Ivo.
m. 2 Roger fitz Gerold
  • William de Roumare, Earl of Lincoln
m.3 Ranulph de Briquessart "le Meschin" Earl of Chester. Issue:
  • Adeliza/Alicia des Meschines of Chester Wife of Richard FitzGilbert de Clare and Robert de Condet (Cundy), Lord of Thorngate
  • Agnes des Meschines of Chester m. Robert de Grandmesnil (Grentemesnil)
  • Ranulf "de Gernon" des Meschines, Earl of Chester

Research notes

Medieval tradition

MEDLANDS summarizes the medieval narratives which all tend to say that Lucy was a daughter of Earl Ælfgar (or Count Alfgar as the Normans tended to describe him):[2]

An alternative origin is suggested by Ingulph's potentially spurious Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland, which records that William I King of England arranged the marriage of "Ivo Taillebois" and "Lucia sister of Edwin and Morcar", her dowry consisting of their land at Hoyland [Ingulph's Chronicle, p. 143.].
The Genealogia Fundatoris of Coventry Monastery also names “Luciam postea comitissam” as daughter of “Algarus tertius”, adding that she married firstly “Yvoni Taylboys” by whom she was childless, secondly “Rogero filio Geroldi Romara”, thirdly “Ranulfo comiti Cestriæ”, and was buried “apud Spalding”Ingulph's Chronicle, p. 143. [Dugdale Monasticon III, Coventry Monastery III, Genealogia Fundatoris, p. 192.]
The Chronicon Angliæ Petriburgense records "Luciæ comitissæ…filiæ Algari comitis Leicestriæ" as husband of "Ivo Tailbois comes Andegavensis, dominus Spaldingiæ et totius Hollandiæ" and "Toraldus avunculus eiusdem Luciæ" [Giles, J. A. (ed.) (1845) Chronicon Angliæ Petriburgense (London), 1074, p. 58. ].
Lastly, the Annals of Peterborough name “Yvo Taylboys, comes Andegavensis, dominus Spaldynge et totius Holandiæ…maritus Luciæ, filiæ Algari comitis Leicestriæ” and "Toraldus avunculus…Luciæ" when recording his donation to Spalding Monastery in 1074 [Dugdale Monasticon III, Spalding Monastery, Lincolnshire, I, p. 215. ].

Cawley accepts the position that this medieval tradition does not look tenable, based on 2 arguments:

This relationship with Earls Edwin and Morcar is impossible from a chronological point of view, in particular because Lucy gave birth to children by her third husband at a time when she would have been over fifty if she has been their sister. It is also extremely unlikely that their sister would have been given a name derived from the Romance languages.

The second argument is very weak, given the known connections between families before 1066, such as the Malets discussed by Keats-Rohan.

Examining the first argument, Aelgar d. (or retired?) about 1062 according to MEDLANDS based apparently on his son succeeding him about then. Lucy had her sons from her 2nd and 3rd husbands about 1100, maybe 1101 and 1102. (Round Feudal England p.151). She must have been 40 or less, so born no later than about 1062, which is just possible.

Evidence that she was an older mother? If Lucy was mother to Beatrix, Ivo's daughter, then we can note the following evidence that Beatrix was b. 1080 or earlier:

1. Beatrix clearly married Ribald before Ivo died.
2. There is weak evidence Beatrix was not just betrothed, because if Beatrix is the mother of Ribald's heir Ralph, EYC 5 shows him already witnessing documents in the 1090s, and (p.301) certainly no later than 1116.[3]
3. Ingulph's Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland even claimed that Beatrix died before her father Ivo, about 1093. (Death approximation of Keats-Rohan.)

On the other hand, do we even know Beatrice was mother to Ralph? We only have what MEDLANDS recites:

A mid-15th century manuscript lists "Radulphum, Heruey…dictum Tailbois, Raynaldum…dictum Taylboys, Willelmum…dictum Tailbois" as the sons of "Ribaldus frater comitis" and his wife "Beatrix uxor Ribaldi".

NOTE: These complications do not seem to conflict with the core argument of Keats-Rohan that Lucy was heiress to Turold and his wife, and that Turold's wife was probably a Malet. It is important to notice that according to the medieval tradition, Lucy had two adult brothers, which means it was not normal for her to have been anyone's only heir, which we know she was.

Keats-Rohan

Keats-Rohan put the case most directly in an online article for Prosopon.[4]

Keats-Rohan also discussed the family in Domesday Descendants, page 35, giving a pedigree on page 42. One of her sources is R.E.G. Kirk, ‘The Countess Lucy: Singular or Plural?’, Genealogist, n.s. 5, 60-75, 131-44, 153-73.[5]

Her titles therefore possibly came to her from her own parents according to Keats-Rohan, and not from her husbands. Keats-Rohan writes in the Prosopon Newsletter, 2 (May 1995):

Lucy was William Malet’s thrice-married granddaughter, the daughter of Robert Malet’s sister and Turold the Sheriff of Lincoln (dead by 1079). The suggestion was first made by R. Kirk in 1888. As N. Sumner has more recently observed:
‘This account has the merit of explaining why the lordship of Spalding and other places in Lincolnshire were held after Ivo’s death not by Beatrice, his direct heir and the daughter of his marriage to Lucy, but by the later husbands of Lucy, Roger fitz Gerold and Ranulph Meschines.’
[...]
...there to the abbey of St Nicholas, Angers, before 1079. Lucy and her first husband Ivo Taillebois subsequently founded, or perhaps re-founded, a priory at Spalding subject to St. Nicholas, Angers. A revealing phrase from the Register of Spalding Priory reads: ‘mortuo quia dicto Thoraldo relicta sibi herede Lucia predicta’ [at his death Turold left an heir, the aforesaid Lucy]. The word heres, ‘heir’, was often used of the child who was to inherit his/her father’s property. Lucy later confirmed the gifts of all three of her husbands: ‘pro redempcione anime patris mei et matris mee et dominorum meorum et parentum meorum’ [for the souls of my father and mother, my husbands and my (other) relatives]. The association of the priory with such a small group of people and the description of Lucy as heres of Turold strongly hint at Lucy’s parentage. But we can go further still.
In their initial benefaction Ivo and Lucy referred to ‘antecessorum suorum Turoldi scilicet uxorisque eius regine’ [our ‘ancestors’ Turold and his wife]. The reference to Turold’s wife indicates that some part of his landholding had come to him through his wife, something also indicated by the occurrence of William Malet amongst those who had held the Domesday lands of Lucy’s first husband Ivo Taillebois before him.

Sources

  1. See for example Domesday Descendants, p.1121
  2. Cawley, MEDLANDS Lucy, checked Sept 2018
  3. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charter V.2 pp.298ff
  4. Keats-Rohan (1995) "Antecessor Noster: The Parentage of Countess Lucy Made Plain" in PROSOPON: NEWSLETTER OF THE UNIT FOR PROSOPOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, no. 2
  5. This is also online and contains summaries of some of the key primary documents. Hathitrust Internet Archive
  • Kirk, R.E.G. (1889). The Countess Lucy : singular or plural? Hathitrust
    NB: Kirk’s work was based upon conjecture, and contained a number of errors.
  • Round, J.H. (1895) Feudal England : historical studies on the XIth and XIIth centuries hathitrust




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Comments: 12

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Where did the image come from and what connection does it have with Lucy? It seems highly unlikely to date to the 12th century.
posted by Monica Edmunds
The link to Keats-Rohan (1995) is broken. Also, there is a small discussion of her here: TAG (1933) Vol. 10, Page 125.
posted by Rick Pierpont
In our database of connected profiles, we have William de Roumare, Earl of Lincoln as the son of his mom Lucy here, by her 2nd husband, Roger FitzGerold; but, in our biography section Family, we list Roumare as the son of Lucy's 3rd husband, Ranulf de Briquessart. We should be self-consistent.

Also, we incorrectly apply the "nicknamey quotes" to his family name de Briquessart, in the biography, rather than his nick-nominal "le Meschin" (i.e., AFAIK, 'the younger' in the normaund viking-french creole).

This doesn't make sense. Unless this is wry WikiTree members-only vernacular adopting into prose English, our (tortured) workaround of stuffing noble titles into the database field for modern nicknames e.g. John "Jack" Doe & Hroflr "Rollo" Somebodysson --> Henry "King of England" Tudor & Richard "de Clare, Lord of Tonbridge and Cardigan" FitzGilbert.

I suggest we ought not do that with "de LNABs" (they should be AKAs) or *ever* use that quotation syntax within our prose bios. It's awkward enough at the top of the page.

Thoughts?

posted by Isaac Taylor
edited by Isaac Taylor
Who is managing this profile? The LNAB remains problematic.
posted by Isaac Taylor
Why the surname Mercia???? (LNAB) Father is for now Lincoln in Wikitree. Use that?
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Mercia-45 and Malet-122 appear to represent the same person because: Malet-122 is a stub but clearly intended to be the same person
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Contact Ky White who specialized in this timeframe and ancestry and these are not the parents he, nor any of the Society of Lady Godiva show for Lucy. [email address removed] Ky has a wealth of source and documentation information in his collection.
posted by Lisa Franklin RN, BSN
De Mercia-19 and Mercia-45 appear to represent the same person because: not sure why this was not merged back in 2013
posted by Robin Lee
The children desperately need pruning. Wikitree is showing two children marrying each other, and a third one marrying the son of those two!! The only known child in reliable sources is Beatrice.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
I have added a Note of Amibiguous Parentage to this Lucia and removed her parents.
posted by Vic Watt
Vic I am very confused about Lucia wikipedia has no note of AElfgar having a dau called Lucia and Ivo Taillebois 2nd wife is well recorded as being Lucy Bollingbroke - dau of Thorold of Lincoln (she had 3 husbands) - so not sure what we should do with this one Lucia, but have put her down for a merge so we reduce the number to de-tangle - i will put this note on her profile :)

Wendy

posted by Wendy (Smith) Hampton
I am very confused about this Lucia. wikipedia has no note of AElfgar having a dau called Lucia and Ivo Taillebois 2nd wife is well recorded as being Lucy Bollingbroke - dau of Thorold of Lincoln (she had 3 husbands) - so not sure what we should do with this one Lucia, but have put her down for a merge so we reduce the number to de-tangle - i will put this note on her profile :)

Wendy

posted by Wendy (Smith) Hampton

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Categories: Early Barony of Bolingbroke