Joseph Martin Sr
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Joseph Martin Sr (abt. 1700 - bef. 1762)

Capt. Joseph Martin Sr
Born about in Bristol, Somerset, Englandmap [uncertain]
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married 1736 [location unknown]
Husband of — married 28 Jun 1754 in Spotsylvania, Spotsylvania, Virginiamap
Descendants descendants
Died before before about age 62 in Fredericksville Parish, Albemarle, Virginiamap
Profile last modified | Created 31 May 2011
This page has been accessed 10,168 times.

Biography

Joseph Martin, believed by some to be the youngest child of William Martin of Bristol, England, is our ancestor, progenitor and emigrant. Joseph was probably born about 1700 in England. His parents have not been documented. Researcher and descendant Joe Martin has located the 1736 will of a George Martin, merchant of Bristol, image attached, which names a son Joseph in Virgina. Joseph sailed to Virginia from Bristol, England on the “Brice” in 1725. [1] According to a family story the father, named William Martin, was dissatisfied with Joseph's engagement and intended marriage. William felt that Joseph was preparing to marry below the family's social class. Therefore, William decided to send his son Joseph to the New World on one of his ships so that the romance would cool down and hopefully dissolve. Joseph did what his father asked. He sailed to the colonies landing in Virginia. Joseph seems to have been given to "tender passion" for soon after his arrival in Virginia he fell in love with and married Susannah Chiles of King William County, Virginia. [2] The story continues that Joseph's father eventually heard of his marriage to Susannah Chiles and became so outraged that he disinherited him (the English aristocracy considered the colonists as inferior). Needless to say, Joseph did not return to England to negotiate with his father. [3] There is no actual evidence for this romantic story, although Joseph did marry Susannah, descendant of two prominent Virginia families, about 1732. They named one son "Brice," another "William," and a third George.

Joseph Martin, Sr. purchased land in Louisa County, Virginia, in 1732,[4] but records show he was still living in Caroline County at least through 1737. [5] By 1740 they had moved to Louisa County (land located in Albemarle County by the time of Joseph's death). [6] Deeds refer to Joseph as ‘Captain,’ but no record of military service has been found. Joseph and Susannah were the parents of at least eleven children.

Susannah died about 1754 and Joseph married widow Ann Pulliam Sandige. [7] In his will, written in 1760, Joseph left hundreds of acres of land and named wife Ann, sons Brice, William, Joseph, John, and George, and daughters Sarah, Mary, Susannah, Martha, Ann, and Olive. [8] His will, dated Dec. 3, 1760 was probated January 14, 1762. [9] It was said that he was a genuine Englishman, possessing characteristics of arrogance and self-importance. He was bold, self-willed, fun of pride and had the highest sense of honor. Joseph and Susannah Chiles Martin had eleven (11) children [10]

  • George Martin b ca 1733 [11]
  • Sarah b ca 1735 married Thomas Burrus [12]
  • Brice Martin b ca 1737, married Unity Barksdale and Rachel Lucas
  • William Martin b ca 1738
  • Joseph Martin, Jr. b September 18, 1740, married 1st Sara Lucas ca 1762 and 2nd Susannah Graves ca 1784
  • Mary Martin b ca 1742, married John Hammack
  • Susannah Martin b ca 1744
  • Martha
  • Ann Martin b ca 1751
  • John Martin b ca 1752, m Susannah Emory
  • Olive Martin b ca 1754, married Ambrose Edwards

Note: Children’s dates are unconfirmed.

Will Transcript: Will of Joseph Martin of Albemarle County, Virginia reads as follows: "In the name of God Amen I Joseph Martin of the Parish of Fredrickvill [sic Fredericksville] in the County of Louisa that being in good health of body and of sound and disposing mind memory and understanding praised be God. Therefore considering with myself the certainty of death & the uncertainty of the time thereof and being desirous so to settle and dispose of such personal and worldly estate wherewith it hath pleased almighty God to bless me with as that no variance or controversy may arise touching or concerning the same after my decease do make and ordain this my last will and testament in manner following first and principally I commend my soul into the hands of almighty God that gave it hoping through the merits of my blessed Saviour to have a free pardon of all my sins and inherit eternal life and my body I commit to the earth to be decently interred at the discretion of my Executors in trust herein after named and as to my personal estate I dispose thereof as Followeth Inprimis - I give to my present wife Ann Martin one negro man named Ben and one negro woman named Sue and one negro girl named Temp during her natural life and no longer the said negro girl Temp to be at her disposing for ever - Item I give and bequeath all the tract of land I now live on to my wife Ann during her natural and no longer and after my wifes decease I give and bequeath to my son Brice Martin he and his heirs forever part of the said tract of land to be divided Beginning at the mouth of the Stony Branch and keeping up the stony branch to the back line my son Brice to have the manner plantation from the mouth of the Stony to the back line and so to the River - Item the reminder of the said tract of land all on the north side of the Stony branch I give and bequeath to my son William Martin he and his heirs forever - Item I give to my son Joseph Martin three hundred acres of land lying and being on Rocky Creek near buck mountain to him and his heirs for ever. - Item I give and bequeath to my son John Martin three hundred acres of land lying and being on Piny run near Buck mountain to him and his heirs for ever - Item I give to my son Joseph Martin my right and title of all my land lying on Goose Creek a branch of Pertomach [sic Potomac] that being in partnership with Colonal Francis Warin living in Essex county to him and his heirs for ever. - Item I give to my daughter Susannah Martin two hundred acres of land lying and being on Rocky Creek her choice out of the whole tract, in case she should die without heir I give the said two hundred acres of land to Susannah Chiles Hammack daughter of John Hammack to her and her heirs lawfully begotten forever. - I give to my daughter Susannah Martin one negro wench named Dianah to her and her heirs for ever - Item I give to my daughter Mary Hammack a negro girl named Perthenia she and her increase to her and her heirs forever - I also give to my daughter Mary Hammack the second choice of my beds & furniture - Item I give to my daughter Sarah Burros a negro man named Nepton to her and her heirs for ever Item I give and bequeath to my daughter Martha Martin one negro boy named Brister to her and her heirs for ever Item I give to my daughter Ann Martin one negro girl named Sillah she and her increase to her and her heirs for ever. Item I give and bequeath to my daughter Olive Martin a negro fellow named Ben and one negro wench named Sue after my wifes decease to her and her heirs for ever and after my decease and my wifes all the rest of my personal estate goods and chattels to equally divided among my six daughters Sarah Burros, Mary Hammock, Susannah Martin, Martha Martin, Ann Martin, Olive Martin. Item I give and bequeath to my son George Martin eight pound current money of Virginia to be paid out of my estate to him and his heirs for ever. I do hereby ordain and appoint Isaac Davis Thomas Burros whole and sole executors of this my last Will and testament and do revoke and make void all other wills by me at any time heretofore and do publish and declare this to be my last will and testament In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal this third day of December one thousand seven hundred and sixty [signed] Joseph Martin Test John Henslee, John Jones At a Court held Albemarle county the fourteenth day of January MDCCLXII [sic 1762] This last will and testament of Joseph Martin dec'd was proved by the oaths of John Henslee & John Jones the witnesses thereto and ordered to be recorded and on the motion of Isaac Davis & Thomas Burros the Executors therein named who made oath according to Law certificate is granted them for obtaining probate thereof in due form giving security whereupon they with Majors Jones & David Watts their securities entered into & acknowledged their bond accordingly Test John Nicholas Clk"[13]

Louisa County VA Land Records Book: A, Page: 159, Grantor: Michael Holland, Grantee: Joseph Martin, Date: 12-Nov-1744 Michael Holland of St. Paul's Par., Hanover co. Gent., to Joseph Martin of Fredericksville Par., Louisa Co. £12 for 400 acres in Fredericksville Par on west side of the Little Mountains beginning at Timothy Dalton Junrs. corner; granted by patent 5 Dec 1740.

Research Notes

There is no documentation for a middle name of ‘Lynch’- this is likely a mistake from genealogists who confused him with his great grandson, Joseph Lynch Martin.

The following is from Martin family descendant/researcher Col. Joe Martin, who traveled to Bristol, England in July, 2014, to search for information confirming Joseph Martin’s parentage and birth. “We did find a William Martin in Bristol, in fact several of them; one was listed in a newspaper article as dying at his home on Orchard Street on 4 Feb. 1765. No additional information was listed in this newspaper article. We found a rich, prominent William Martin who was the High Sheriff and Lord Mayor of Bristol in 1757, member of the Merchants Corporation and Alderman at the time of his death. However, we could not find a “will” in the Bristol Civic Archive Records but did find a “recorded and approved will” dated 20 Mar. 1765, in the Canterbury Archives Records office. This is where a “Will” would have been approved for someone who had multiple properties; all these multiple property “wills” had to be approved by the Canterbury Archives Record Office at this time. However, this “will” did not mention “where he died or when he died”. I’ve communicated with this archives office and two different researchers who work there and they have searched their records and no other information was found concerning this approved “will” for this William Martin. In this “will” he mentions, his brother Thomas, two sisters, nieces and several other relatives, but no children were mentioned. He also mentions a wife, Sarah, who he leaves a home to her located on Castle Street, which is only a few blocks from the Orchard Street home. The newspaper article said “a William Martin had died on 4 Feb. 1765 at his home on Orchard Street. This is puzzling for me. We searched all 16 parish records in Bristol for a Joseph Martin, birth or baptismal record, none were found. Therefore, we have nothing to tie Joseph Martin to this William Martin or any of the other William Martins found. I feel confident; this William Martin, whose “will” was approved by the Canterbury Records Office on 20 Mar., 1765 is the same person who is buried in the Lord Mayors Chapel in Bristol. His granddaughter, Sarah Reed Rydell is also buried with him in the church vault. This is proven by a plaque located on the wall of the church. We searched all the other archives in Bristol, including records at the Library, merchant seaman’s records, shipping records, and the old 1750’s city council office records. No records were found to establish that William Martin was the father of our Joseph Martin, the c. 1725 immigrant to America.”

The following from another descendant Joseph Martin: For his services Gen. William Martin was given a huge area of land around Newport, Wales and the Martin family remained there until about 1600 when one of my Great Grandfathers, another William Martin moved to Bristol, England, about 40 miles away and began an ocean going shipping business with 3 ships, one being the "Brice" which he sent my 5th Great grandfather, Capt. Joseph Martin to America on in 1725.

This was Capt. Joseph Martin Sr. who married Susannah Chiles, the great granddaughter of the somewhat famous Walter Chiles, Sr. of Jamestown.

Latest Y-DNA evidence suggests that Mordecai Hord was an illegitimate son of Joseph Martin Sr. and one of the daughters of John (Hore) Hord (abt.1680-1749). At present we have named her Unknown Hord (1712-).

At the moment it is unclear when the NPE occurred but it must be before Joseph Martin Sr. married Susannah Chiles.

We have Y-DNA tested a male descendant of Mordecai Hord (abt.1730-abt.1789) and he is matching other male descendants of the Martin family with a MRCA being Joseph Martin Sr. For the moment I have put Mordecai as a son of an unknown daughter of John Hord and Joseph Martin Sr. until we can figure out which daughter it could be. Please contact me for any queries and information on the Y-DNA results. Malcolm Hoare

Y-DNA Details lead to a new possibility (by Timothy Peterman)

In my opinion, the Y DNA result perfectly resolves anomalous oddities in both the Hord and Martin family.

I already have a connection to the Joseph Martin, Sr. family, which is why I quickly recognized the family. Briefly, Mordecai's son, Stanwix Hord (from whom I descend) married Jestina Burrus, who was the daughter of Thomas Burrus and Sarah (Martin) Burrus. Sarah Martin was the daughter of Joseph Martin, Sr. (d 1761) & Susannah (Chiles) Martin. There are some Burrus naysayers that reject that Jestina was the daughter of Sarah (Martin) Burrus, claiming that she had passed away & a second wife of Thomas is Jestina's mother. The eldest daughter of Stanwix & Jestina was named Sarah Hord. Thomas Burrus apparently died ca 1798/ 99 in Surry Co., NC. Within the next couple of years, many (maybe all) of his children moved to what was the Overton Co., TN (Clay Co., TN today; I think their lands were inundated by Dale Hollow Lake). This move appears to have been part of a broader move within the Martin family. Sarah Hord married Charles Smith. They had 10 children: 9 sons & 1 daughter. The daughter, Jestina (Smith) Lovell, was my great-great-great grandmother. Among the sons were Thomas Smith, Mordecai Hord Smith, Joseph Martin Smith, Stephen I. K. Smith. Charles Smith was the son of Stephen I. K. Smith (1756-1806). The name of his wife has not been preserved. However, because Stephen I. K. Smith named a daughter, Jestina, I suspect (no proof whatsoever) that she may have been a Burrus, an older sister to Jestina (Burrus) Hord, and a daughter of Thomas Burrus & Sarah Martin, which would make the marriage of Charles Smith & Sarah Hord a first cousin marriage. All of the children of Stephen I. K. Smith moved from Surry Co., NC to Overton Co., TN, and they were the ONLY part of the Charles Smith & Ann Mallory (parents of Stephen I. K.) family to do so, an indication again that this may have been part of the Burrus & Martin migration pattern.

I have long known that we have a noteworthy problem in the Hord family. In John Hord's 1749 will, he named "my grandson Mordecai Hord" without identifying how Mordecai connected. If you go through the list of the known (ie, will identified) children of John Hord, each one of them can be ruled out as parent for Mordecai. Perhaps an unknown son was Mordecai's father, or so I pondered before I saw the Y-DNA results last fall. Now I suspect the connecting child was an unknown daughter, one who died so young that she has escaped historical records.

This suggests that we should see a surname switch between Mordecai & his biological father, and now that I have seen the y-DNA result, I'm 99 to 100% certain that the father was Joseph Martin, Sr.

Joseph Martin's father was William Martin, said to have been Lord Mayor of Bristol, England, and the owner of a large, successful shipping company that operated out of Bristol. In 1724, William Martin sent his son Joseph (then in his early 20s) to Virginia on a ship called the Brice to do some of the shipping company's business. Joseph Martin wrote a letter to his father, stating that he had fallen in love with a girl in Virginia and intended to get married. I don't know if this letter survives any place. But this is the tradition that comes down in the Martin family. William Martin read the letter & wrote back to his son that 1) he did NOT have his permission to marry this girl in Virginia, and 2) he was being disinherited. Joseph Martin never returned to England. He remain in Virginia & a few years later, married Susannah Chiles, a well connected young lady with noteworthy relatives in Virginia. They went on to have a large family (11 children), including Sarah (Martin) Burrus, and Gen. Joseph Martin, Jr. Martin descendants have always been baffled by this tradition. What was wrong with Susannah Chiles? Was she not English enough? There was nothing scandalous about her at all. I don't think they ever entertained the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the letter didn't pertain to Susannah Chiles -at all.

My synthesis, based on the Y-DNA results is that: 1. Joseph Martin, Sr. fell in love with, seduced and impregnated an unknown daughter of John Hord. 2. I suspect that this daughter died in childbirth (possibly before William Martin's letter arrived in Virginia) 3. If Joseph Martin had wanted to marry the Hord girl, he couldn't, because she was deceased 4. John Hord raised his grandson & gave him the name Mordecai Hord 5. Several years later, Joseph Martin met and married Susannah Chiles. 6. I suspect that in all of those early Hord genealogies, written in the mid 1800s, the daughter & thus the scandal was omitted; Mordecai was included, sometimes erroneously called a son of John Hord.

The tested patrilineal descendant of Mordecai Hord (through his middle son, William Hord) belongs to the haplogroup R-FT70044. The only other person who shares this terminal SNP is a descendant of Joseph Martin, Sr.

The MRCA between the two participants is estimated to have been born in 1750 AD (the variance is 1581 to 1895). Joseph Martin was born about 50 years before this, but well within the variance.

R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L761>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z46516>ZZ11>U152>Z56>BY3548>Z43>Z46>Z48>CTS12976>S4634>Y157199>BY121920>BY96344>FT70044

Any additional thoughts are most welcome.

In progress................

Sources

  1. Coldham, Peter Wilson. Complete Book of Emigrants 1700-1750 Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD. p. 347. "21 Oct - 9 Nov Shippers by the Brice, Mr Joseph Martin, bound from Bristol .Virginia; Thomas Chamberlayne, Thomas Martin & Co. William Curnock."
  2. Land records place her parents in St. Margaret’s Parish in King William County. “Chiles Family.” The William and Mary Quarterly Vol. 8, No. 2 (Oct., 1899), pp. 105-106 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1915909
  3. A Biographical Sketch of General Joseph Martin. The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography , Vol. 8, No. 4 (Apr., 1901), pp. 347-359 Published by: Virginia Historical Society Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4242374
  4. 3 November 1732, Davis, Rosalie E, Louisa Co., Virginia Deed Books A & B 1742-1759,
  5. Juror, 1737. Dorman, Frederick, transcriber. Caroline County Virginia Order Book, 1732-1740. 1971.
  6. County Court, Louisa County, Deed books, 1742-1865; general indexes to deeds, 1742-1872, 1969-1978, Deed book, v. A, 1742-1754 -- Deed book, v. B, 1754-1759; digital images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS42-43Q3-Y?i=90&cat=281398), images 91-92. Grantor: Michael Holland, Grantee: Joseph Martin, Date: 12 Nov 1744.
  7. Marriage bond Joseph Martin to Ann Sandige. Virginia County Records - Spotsylvania County, 1721-1800, Volume I, Book E, transcript Ed. William Armstrong Crozier
  8. Albemarle County Will Book 2, page 112. Image of will here
  9. Will, see reference above
  10. Woods, Edgar. The History of Albemarle County. The Michie Co., Charlottesville, VA, 1901. p. 263
  11. Joseph Martin gave 130 acres of land to George in July, 1754, suggesting that George was now 21. Deed, Louisa County, Virginia, Deed Book B, p. 10 image at deed
  12. Joseph Martin sold 350 acres of land to Thomas Burrus for L40 in 1758. Deed, Louisa County, Virginia, Deed Book B, p. 269, image at Burrus deed
  13. Albemarle County, Virginia Will Book No. 2 with Inventories & Accounts 1752-1785, pages 112, 113 & 114; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89P7-97CR




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DNA Connections
It may be possible to confirm family relationships with Joseph by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. However, there are no known yDNA or mtDNA test-takers in his direct paternal or maternal line. It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share some percentage of DNA with Joseph:

Have you taken a DNA test? If so, login to add it. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA.



Comments: 42

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Removed marriage to "Unknown Hord." If he parented an illegitimate child there was no marriage.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
Martin-85491 and Martin-4368 appear to represent the same person because: Clearly meant to be the same man. Lynch as a middle name is an Internet invention.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
Since the recent G2G question has generated a lot of interest - and I now have a document with detailed information about Joseph once he settled in America- I think it's time for a new, documented/fact-based, less muddled, less speculative bio. To get things started I will create a free space page with a starting draft and links to additional information, then others can add, edit, comment as they see fit. Most of the children need research, only a few have any real documentation. If anyone can locate a copy of the Vestry Book (or other records) of Fredericksville Parish that would be a great asset. We should probably plan to have a Free-space page with an outline of all the records related to Joseph since there are far too many to include in a profile bio. Maybe also a page with a full transcript of the will.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
edited by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
I added the will from the Albemarle county records. Martha Martin is a named beneficiary. I did not change the text.

The initial inventory of Joseph Martin Gent, January 23, 1762, can be found here 156 L

posted by Bob Pickering
edited by Bob Pickering
I added Martha to the bio based on the will. As with much of this bio I have no clue where the "Martha wasn't in the will" statement originated, there have been multiple merges and a zillion edits over time. I now have a 30 page list of documents and references for Joseph, but I need to validate (or expand) some before using as the basis for bio statements. I need to head to the library!
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
I appreciate everyone's comments. It's wonderful to see communication and cooperation! Clearly this is a collaborative project and makes me proud to be a wikitree - er.
posted by Jenny (Fisher) Lawless
Re the Will of William Martin of Bristol probate 1765 (mentioned in the research note).Perogative Court of Canterbury wills are housed in the National Archives not the Canterbury archives

Images of the wills are at present free to download. They are also viewable on Ancestry.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D550215

posted by Helen (Coleman) Ford
Thanks, I transcribed Joe’s email as he wrote it. His later research -and the attached images of the will of George Martin - seem to show pretty conclusively that George was the father of emigrant Joseph since he names his “son Joseph in America.” The romantic family stories about ships and disownment are clearly fictional.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
I agree it is good evidence. That will is also available at the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D601701

and Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/28349273?h=38abe0

posted by Helen (Coleman) Ford
I would not dismiss his grandson's Col. William Lucas Martin's biographical sketch included in the Lyman C Draper Manuscripts along with the photo used in his profile that was re published in the Virginia Historical Magazine as being "clearly fictional"; he states on page 348-349: "Know then that my father was born in the year 1740, in Albemarle County, Virginia, near Charloteesville. His father was an Englishman, born and raised in the city of Bristol, named Joseph Martin, the youngest of three children (two sons and one daughter) of a wealthy merchant of that city, engaged in the American trade. He fitted his son Joseph when young as supercargo to Virginia, in a vessel called the Brice. He, my grandfather, afterwards named one of his sons Brice in memory of this ship; and the name has been perpetuated in the family from then until now, and it has spread considerably amound our friends. There in Virginia he married Susannah Chiles, daughter of ____ Chiles, a respectable and wealthy farmer of that State. With this his father's English pride became so offended (as they, the English, considered the Colonists as inferior degraded set) that he was determined to disinherit him; which he finally did. My grandfather never returned to England, but settled in Albemarle county, where he raised eleven children- five sons and six daughters, all of unusually large stature-- in other respects, mediocrity; except my father and two sisters who were superiors. They were all respectable and occupied the middle rank in society, as did their father. He, my grandfather, was a perfect Englishman--large and athletic; bold, darin, self willed and supercilious, with the highest sense of honor. And in him was depiced, as my father has told me, the most complete form of the aristocracy of the British government. He lived to be a good old age and died about 1760, leaving a pretty good estate. My grandmother was one of the best of woman kind--her parents of English descent. They raised a large family of children, mostly daughters, all highly respectable, afrom whom has descended an immense offspring, as the Wallers, Carrs, Lewises, Marks, Overtons, Minors, Terrys, Chiles &c, now spread mostly through the South and West."
posted by [Living Martin]
Descendant Joe Martin has spent years doing research in Virginia and in England and cannot find any documents to support the ship part of the story or the disownment. The George Martin whose Will is attached to this profile is most likely to be Joseph’s father. He was a wealthy merchant, he may have been unhappy that his son married and stayed in America, but he did not disown him.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
I found Joe's book "The Journey of "Old Fremont", a Revolutionary War Rifle" (2013) online; he discusses Major Brice Martin and seems to agree or at least perpetuate the "ship" story in question when on page 9-10 he states: "Major Brice Martin was one of the distinguished Colonial military officers and a son of Captain Joseph Martin, Sr., the immigrant to America who sailed from England to America in about 1725 aboard a family owned ship called the Brice." Now is there a reason why he would say "family owned ship called the Brice" if it weren't true, or perhaps he did find evidence of exactly that. Is there somewhere else where he shows his family tree? I would like to see his research from his perspective for myself. It's really neat that he is a descendent. Has he tested his Y-DNA haplogroup? Would you happen to know what it is and how he descends from him? Since he had said both things it would appear, I think we need some more information and evidence to be able to see how credible and relevance this will is to this person. Do we know who Henry Martin son of George Martin is, for example? Perhaps we should start there and with George Martin so we may be able to make a stronger connection. Thanks!
posted by [Living Martin]
edited by [Living Martin]
Joe is my cousin through the Martin line. Yes, he has done the Y-DNA and has also gotten other male relatives to test as well to be certain we all descend from Joseph and Susannah Martin.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
If you don't mind me asking again, what is his reported haplogroup? That knowledge will help me in my own research. Here is an interesting mention of "The Brice" apparently still in operation in 1770 (Feb 8) https://www.newspapers.com/image/?clipping_id=2094788&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjM0NDA4MzY0LCJpYXQiOjE2NTIyMDY0NDksImV4cCI6MTY1MjI5Mjg0OX0.VURgFR0XgZInzgZzMOT7r42ihkbo82gwT-EmZNheoGA
posted by [Living Martin]
Y-line descendants of Joseph Martin are part of the FTDNA Martin group, Haplogroup is R-M269. They are Group 23 on the project results page.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
Martin Group 23 looks questionable. Of the 11 members who list any information at all about their oldest-known, four of them are not named Martin and a fifth claims descent from a German Martin family. With multiple "Dowells" in the group, who all claim descent from men by that name who were born in Albemarle in the 1760s, it is possible that Joe's line "crossed over" at some point from the Dowell family. The Dowells in Martin Group 23 are only showing there because they actively joined the group. It is possible that there are many more Dowells who have not bothered to join the Martin Project. Of course, the opposite is also possible (the crossover went the other way, from Martin to Dowell)... Has your cousin looked into these possibilities? There are also a couple guys named Jones, who both seem to have descended from the same Allen Ennis Jones, born 1764 in Virginia, but they just add to the confusion and muddy the Group 23 waters even further.

It's been gone for more than a decade, but the lineage page for "Tree 23" that Julia Wood (the Martin DNA Project admin) used to host, included this for the German line's immigrant: "JOHN JOSEPH MARTIN, was born 24 May 1691 in Muesen, Nassau-Siegen, Germany, and died 1758 in Germantown, Fauquier Co, Va. He married (1) MARIA KATHRINA OTTERBACH 1714 in Germanna Va. She was born 05 Nov 1699 in Trupach, Germany, and died 1724 in Germantown, Fauquier Co, Va. He married (2) EVE ----- Abt. 1729 in Germantown, Fauquier Co, Va. She died 1778." As the only German, this could just be faulty research... I haven't bothered to check it.

I have long speculated that Joseph was actually from the much larger Group 8, which includes several lines from New Kent, VA with ties to Bristol. Nearly all New Kent records were destroyed, so these lines are incredibly hard to trace... A decade ago, there was only one on Julia's Group 8 page who actually claimed an immigrant from Bristol, but there are several now with names like "Valentine" and "Martin Martin" that could be from the same family. It would be nice to find another Y-DNA candidate from a different line than Joe's to test...

posted by David Martin
My cousin’s interest was to show that the Joseph and John who fathered Cherokee children were brothers. I don’t know if the family members he had take a test ever joined the Martin project. The tests did show that the men were brothers.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
That's confusing... You already cited Group 23. How could you know this if no one joined the project? Are you saying that your cousin, Joe, is a member of Group 23, but that two other men he had tested might not be?

My real interest is in the Dowell, Jones & German matches, though. If Joe has more Dowell matches than are showing in Martin Group 23, that could mean that he is actually a Dowell by blood, rather than a Martin. The opposite could also be true, and an examination of his matches could show which possibility is more likely...

posted by David Martin
Yes, Joe Martin is in the project, but I don’t know if any other cousins who tested are. I don’t know their names, either. We were at a family reunion almost ten years ago when they agreed to test. They are direct male descendants of John Martin, bother of Gen. Joseph Martin. After they tested Joe let us know that their Y-DNA was a match for male descendants of Gen. Joseph.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
David,

William Void Martin, from Group 8, sure seems to descend from Joseph Martin Sr., based on my research. His YDNA test shows that he is R1a, not R1b. His BigY-700 test puts him at R-FTB64834.

WVM>Carlie Patton Martin>Alexander "Alex" Edward Martin>John Martin>Anson Cook Martin>John Martin>Brig. Gen. Joseph Lynch Martin>"Capt." Joseph Martin Sr.

If my research is correct, then Joseph Martin Sr. could not be R-269.

We are eager to prove this theory since it is key to our research in Group 8.

posted by Ken Williams
Hi Ken,

I have no solid research linking any of my Group 8 Martins to General Joseph, but we have a very large number of autosomal matches with people claiming descent from Gen. Joseph by many different lines. That said, those trees on Ancestry.com are mostly garbage, so I remain confused...

Can anyone here get us in touch with "cousin Joe"?

Thanks, David

posted by David Martin
Hi David,

Here's where it gets even messier. David William Martin (R-BY27212) - the parent haplogroup of William Void Martin's R-FTB64834 - lists his lineage to the other prominent Joseph Martin!

DWM>Jesse Martin>Jesse Martin>Jesse Martin>William M Martin>Joel Martin>Col. Joseph Martin (1760-1833).

Again, two BigY-700 matches claiming different lines :)

Why we love/hate our research!

Ken

posted by Ken Williams
Please feel free to make any changes.

Certainly sounds like the same family

posted by Wanda Richards
It seems pretty obvious that Isaac Martin (my ancestor) is related to this line: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Martin-12302

They both ended up in Halifax County, VA and both married Indian women. I can't prove it though.

posted by Wanda Richards
I know it does and here's why: Col. Joseph Martin and Col. John Martin were kinsmen, and married into the Page family. Joseph married Susannah Chiles, descending from John Page, and John Martin married Martha Burwell, kinswoman to the Page family as well. There are many people in between, in other words.
posted by [Living Martin]
Since there is zero documentation connecting Joseph to the people attached as his parents, can we disconnect them?
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
I am disconnecting the Eastern Cherokee application images for an unrelated person named Martin from this profile.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
The document images attached to this profile don’t relate to this man. Not sure where they belong, but not here.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
There are no records that list a middle name for this Joseph,
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
Martin-33486 and Martin-4368 appear to represent the same person because: Clearly meant to be the same man. He had no middle name.
posted by Kathie (Parks) Forbes
This has pulled to gether from mant sources. The early dates seem slightly awry. IfBrice was born in 1722 the sailing was suelwy earlier. The estimaterd birth date of 1700 is either too late or the first two children Mary and Joseph are not his. The marrige date to Sussanah seems late considring the childen. or are the Childrens date all wrong. Brise is dated 1722 the bio shows 1736.
posted by Chris Hoult
Martin-42304 and Martin-4368 appear to represent the same person because: My apologies, I had Joseph Martin’s dates wrong and created another profile for him.
posted by Leslie (Preston) Ross
Martin-35388 and Martin-4368 appear to represent the same person because: This is the same person.
posted by Kristin Merritt
Martin-30866 and Martin-4368 appear to represent the same person because: Clear match
posted by Stephanie Stults