Christopher Newport II
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Christopher Newport II (bef. 1561 - aft. 1617)

Captain Christopher Newport II
Born before in Harwich, Essex, Englandmap
Son of and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married 1584 in Englandmap
Husband of — married 1 Oct 1595 in Stepney, Middlesex, Englandmap
Died after after age 55 in Banten Roads, East Indiesmap
Profile last modified | Created 31 Jan 2014
This page has been accessed 12,687 times.
US Southern Colonies.
Christopher Newport II resided in the Southern Colonies in North America before 1776.
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Contents

Biography

Summary

Notables Project
Christopher Newport II is Notable.

Many authors have written about Christopher Newport. A great summary of his biography can be found on Wikipedia Christopher Newport.[1] See also the below, extensive bibliography section.

Christopher Newport was an English privateer, ship captain, and adventurer who helped to establish the first permanent English colony in North America at Jamestown in 1607. Born the son of a shipmaster on the east coast of England, he worked in the commercial shipping trade and, beginning in 1585, as a privateer, or sanctioned pirate, in the war between England and Spain.[2]

Privateer and Adventurer

First Voyage 1580

Christopher sailed from Harwich 3 Nov 1580, on the merchant ship Minion of London, jumping ship with other crew members at Baya (Bahia), Brazil, in 1581. Stephen Hare was the shipmaster, and Christopher with some of the crew quarreled erupted with the shipmaster. His return trip may not have been until 1582, at which time he was listed among Harwich shipmasters.[2]

War with Spain: Christopher as Privateer 1585

The following year, an undeclared war between England and Spain began that did not conclude until 1604. During this period, essentially licensed pirateering (privateer) became commonplace and Christopher reputedly gained from these practices.[2]

During, this period, Christopher commanded ships such as the Little John, the Margaret, and the Golden Dragon. and the Drake, some of which are below discussed. His final, 1603 "war" mission was a raid on Puerto Caballos. With most of his privateer mission, if funding merchants were involved he shared the spoils.[1]

Sir Francis Drake & Virginia 1587-1608

Circa 1587, Christopher was master's mate on the Drake, sailing on this privateer with Sir Francis Drake. They went to Cádiz and destroyed Spanish ships. Circa 1589, Christopher continued his search of Spain's coast for loot and booty, and that year he became known as a mariner of Limehouse, he was master of Robert Cobb and others' ship, the Margaret His first major command was of the Little John, which sailed in a fleet in 1590, bound for the West Indies and Virginia. While near Cuba, Christopher attempted to capture two Mexican prizes, losing his right arm in the process, thus delaying his arrival in Virginia.[2]

  • 1592–1595 - Christopher Newport is made captain of the Golden Dragon, owned by John Moore, and sails in the West Indies.[2]

Within four years (ca. 1591-1595), Christopher made annual voyages to West Indies, under the employ of merchants of London, while also engaging in his privateer preoccupation, commanding a flotilla of privateers and plundering from Spain to the Caribbean. In Jun and Jul, 1591, he had a successful expedition for John Watts off Cuba, for which he was promoted to Captain of the Little John. Also during this time, he took advantage of trade in Barbary Coast.

The Madre de Dios was another Spanish-Portuguese prize ship that he helped capture near the Azores and commandeered back to England, described by some as the greatest English plunder of the 16th century. Subsequently, in 1606, he gained an appointment with the Virginia Company of London as the voyage leader on expeditions to Virginia, often also carrying news and critical supplies. This involved negotiating between Virginia's leaders. (Please see also the below discussion in the section Establishment of Jamestown.)

  • Next, having provided two Ships and a small Bark, they [the King's Council in England for Virginia] committed the Transportation of the Colony to Captain Christopher Newport, who was esteemed a Mariner of Ability and Experience on the American Coasts. [Stith's narrative briefly covers Christopher's history back to 1592. The contractual compact for establishment of the colony is also recounted in detail by Stith].[3]
    Jamestown Church Tower
    Christopher Newport II was a Jamestown colonist.
  • Captain Christopher Newport arrived Apr 1607 at Jamestown on the 100 ton Susan Constant, carrying 71 passengers. [4] On 22 Jun 1607, he returned to England carrying mineral and forest specimens, and reached the Thames River port in less than five weeks.
  • The following year (Jan 1608), sailing the First SupplyChristopher brought 50 colonists, and then returned to England 10 Apr, 1608. [5] In Oct, he brought 60 colonists on the Second Supply[6][7]

Notably, in 1608, he participated in the attempted coronation of the Native American Chief Powhatan, but that "honor" was refused.[1][2]

Christopher's annual raids on Spanish-Caribbean settlements and ships continued, between 1595 and the end of the Anglo-Spanish War in 1604 and peace treaty. Because of his level of experience as a ship captain, including sailing the Caribbean (continuing between 1604-1605), Christopher was able to turn from life as a privateer to that of a successful trader.[2]

Exotic Animals for the King 1605

In 1605, imported crocodiles and a wild boar, which he gifted to King James I.[1]

Establishment of Jamestown

flag of the Jamestowne Society

The Susan Constant, Godspeed and Discovery, carrying a total of 105 passengers, one of whom died during the voyage, departed from England in Dec 1606 and reached the Virginia coast in late April 1607. The expedition was led by Captain Christopher Newport. On 13 May, after two weeks of exploration, the ships arrived at a site on the James River selected for its deep water anchorage and good defensive position. The passengers came ashore the next day, and work began on the settlement. Initially, the colony was governed by a council of seven, with one member serving as president.

Virginia Company 1606-11

  • 1606 - named principal master of the Royal Navy
  • Virginia Company of London gives Christopher command of its first fleet to sail to Virginia.[2]
  • 1606 - December Voyage of the Susan Constant
  • 1607 - April, Arrival in Chesapeake Bay
  • 1607 - May: Exploration, seeking a site
  • May 21–27, 1607 - Captain Christopher Newport, Captain John Smith, George Percy, and others explore the James River, making mostly friendly contact with the Kecoughtans, the Paspaheghs, the Quiyoughcohannocks, and the Appamattucks.[2]
  • 1607, May: Indian Trouble
  • 26 May 1607 - While Christopher Newport and a party of colonists explore the James River, an alliance of five Algonquian-speaking Native Americans—the Quiyoughcohannocks, the Weyanocks, the Appamattucks, the Paspaheghs, and the Chiskiacks—were embattled at Jamestown, wounding ten and killing two.[2]
  • 1607, May: Choice of Jamestown
  • 1607, June - First Supply MIssion
  • 22 Jun 1607 - Christopher Newport departs from Jamestown for England, carrying a letter to the Virginia Company of London that exaggerates the Virginia colony's commercial possibilities.[2]
  • 12 Aug 1607 - Christopher Newport arrives in London[2]
  • 1608 Second Supply Mission
  • 1608 Powhatan's Mantle
  • 1609 Third Supply: ill-fated Sea Venture
  • 1609 - Third Supply
  • 1611 Last Trip to Jamestown
  • 12 May 1611 - Christopher Newport arrives at Jamestown for the last time, bringing Sir Thomas Dale with him.[2]
  • 20 Aug 1611 - Christopher Newport sails from Virginia.[2]

British East India Company 1612-17)

  • 1612 British East India Company
  • 1613 First East India Voyage: Banten
  • 1615 Second East India Voyage: India
  • 1617 Third East India Voyage: Banten

Birth and Family

Birth and Parentage 1561

Christopher Newport was born in 1561, the son of a shipmaster on the east coast of England, christened the son of Christopher and Jane Newport 29 Dec 1561, Harwich, Essex.[2]


First Marriage to Katherine Proctor 1584

In Harwich, 19 Oct 1584, he and Katherine Proctor were married.[2]


Second Marriage to Ellen Ade 1590

By 1590, his first wife Katherine Proctor Newport had died. He then married Ellen Ade, who also subsequently died. [2]

Third Marriage to Elizabeth Glanville 1595

In 1595, Christopher married his third wife, Elizabeth Glanville, whose father was a leading London goldsmith. Soon after, he partners with Elizabeth's five brothers as one-sixth owner of the heavily armed ship the Neptune. With his marriage, his status was no longer that of an employee of London merchants, but a successful investor.[2]


Children

It is possible that he had children by his first or second marriage. These would have been born in the 1585 or 1590 time frame. One is presently attached on WikiTree but without documentation:

  1. Molly Newport possibly Mary with a nickname Molly, married Bragg. Born, say 1586

Four children are named in his will, and presumably all are children of his third marriage in 1595 to Elizabeth Glanville:

  1. John Newport, the surviving heir, claimed land in Virginia, born, say 1596
  2. Christopher Newport, III born England say 1598, named in will but died on the same East Indies voyage as his father.
  3. Jane, no record of marriage, virtually disinherited due to her lifestyle, was baptised on 21 July 1594 in Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England.[8]
  4. Elizabeth. Unmarried and under 21 when her father's will was written in 1618, therefore born after 1597, say 1602.

In addition there is Marian Newport, married Hatcher, who was born about 1615, based on her age at death. She could have been the child of Christopher and Elizabeth, but is not named in his will. Is it possible that her father, on a long voyage, died before he learned of her birth?Day-1904 07:44, 7 July 2016 (EDT)

Will and Death 1617

16 Nov 1616 - Will date. It was written just before his third trip to the East Indies, when he took his son Christopher Newport, master's mate, with him.[2] His will was proved 27 Oct 1618.[9]

See also: Find A Grave: Memorial #71450407.

Being now by God's grace and assistance to go with the next wind and weather Captain of the good ship called the Hope of London for to sail into the East Indies, a long and dangerous voyage &c.

  • I give and bequeath unto my loving wife Elizabeth my now dwelling house situate and being upon Tower Hill, London, in the parish of All Hallows Barking together with my garden adjoining thereunto, only and for and during her natural life.
  • After her decease I give and bequeath my fee simple of my said house and lease of my said garden &c. unto my two sons jointly together, by name Christopher and John Newport.
  • If they die without issue then to my daughter Elizabeth &c. To my said daughter Elizabeth four hundred pounds (now employed in the East India Company), to be given her at her day of marriage or full age of twenty one years!
  • To my daughter Jane five pounds in three months, and no more, in regard of many her great disobediences towards me and other misdemeanors, to my 'neat heart's gn [not legible].
  • Item I give and bequeath unto my said two sons Christopher and John and to my said daughter Elizabeth, equally between them all and singular, my stock and adventure in general which I have in the Virginia Company &c.
  • I make and ordain of this my last will and testament my loving wife Elizabeth and the Right Worshipful Sir Thomas Smith, knight, Governor of the East India Company, my full and whole executors.
  • And I give to the said Sir Thomas Smith one diamond ring of the value of ten pounds of lawful English money.
  • And as overseers I make and ordain my very good friends Mr. Matthias Springham and Mr. John Goodfellow, to each of whom I give a ring of forty shillings apiece. In Bantam Road this tenth of September 1617.

Per the below, it appears that his son Christopher was then Master's Mate in the same ship.

Christofer Newport, Master's Mate of the Hope, 27 April 1618, proved 22 September 1618.

  • A remembrance to the Hon. knight Sir Thomas Smith and to sundry friends (named). Among the gifts were Howes Chronicle, books of voyages, a jar of green ginger, a Cheshire cheese &c.
  • To my loving mother Mrs. Elizabeth Newport one China box one Japan dish, three small China painted dishes &c. To my brother John Newporte a sword enlaid with silver, a pair of hangers and a small hoop ring of gold &c. To my sister Elizabeth Newport two pieces of branched damask, one red and one red and "yallowe" a China box, two gold rings one with a spark of a diamond and one with a garnet &c.
  • To my aunt Amye Glunmeld (Glanville) one gold ring with garnet unset.
  • To my kinswoman Elizabeth Gluufield (Glanville) one China box.
  • To Elizabeth Chapell, Mr. Melson's daughter, one China box.
  • To Dr. Meddowes preacher of God's word at Fanchurch six China dishes painted.
  • To my sister Jane Newport ten pounds, conditionally that she have reformed her former course of life. But if she continue in her wonted courses then my will is that she have nothing.
  • To my Aunt Johane Ravens ten pounds, in consideration of twenty four ryalls of eight remaining in my hands, which moneys I received of Henry Ravens deceased for her use, with an old silver cup.
  • To Christofer Ravens (in consideration of a gift from his brother Henry Ravens).
  • My linen, books and instruments belonging to the sea to be sold at the mast and the same registered in the purser's book.
  • I give all to my brother John Newport and my sister Elizabeth Newport and I make them my executors.
  • Aboard the Hope in the Road of Saldainin 27 April 1618. [9]

Proved by John Newport, power reserved for Elizabeth Newport when she should come to seek it. Meade, 85. [9]

Legacy

  • Newport News - namesake of this Virginia city
  • Christopher Newport College, 1961, (later University), Newport News, Virginia.[2]
  • Newport, Kentucky, namesake[1]
  • Newport News Point - namesake (where the mouth of the James River joins Hampton Roads harbour) - although this is disputed as having been named for Irish settlers of the name Neuce[1]
  • David Hemblen (Captain Newport) portrayal in Pocahontas: The Legend in 1999
  • Christopher Plummer (Captain Newport) portrayal in The New World[1]
  • Breese, Steven (playwright). Actus Fidei (An Act of Faith) written 2005-06, premiered at Christopher Newport University, 2007 & performed at Jamestown 2007 Festival[1]
  • Nichols Jr, A Bryant. Captain Newport. (Biography.) 2007.[1]
  • Captain Newport statue. Christopher Newport University[1]
  • 10th Great-Grandson, Brian Werner, founder of Tiger Missing Link Foundation and its Tiger Creek Wildlife Refuge[1]
  • Christopher Newport, US Navy veteran (2014) appointed to Chief of Staff for the City of Houston. Unspecified degree of relationship.[1]

Research Notes

Bibliography from Wikipedia

  • Nichols Jr, A Bryant. Captain Christopher Newport: Admiral of Virginia, Sea Venture, 2007.
  • Price, David A. Price, Love and Hate in Jamestown: John Smith, Pocahontas, and the Start of A New Nation, Alfred A. Knopf, 2003.
  • Breese, Steven. Actus Fidei. Steven Breese and Associates, 2007.
  • Smith, John. The Generall Historie of Virginia. London: G H. 1623.
  • Wingfield, Jocelyn R. Virginia's True Founder: Edward Maria Wingfield, etc., Charleston, 2007, ISBN 978-1-4196-6032-0.

Bibliography Recommended by Salmon

  • Andrews, Kenneth R. Elizabethan Privateering: English Privateering During the Spanish War, 1585–1603. London: Cambridge University Press, 1964.
  • Hakluyt, Richard. The Principall Navigations, Voiages, and Discoveries of the English Nation. London: 1589, 11: 34–39.
  • Horn, James. A Land as God Made It: Jamestown and the Birth of America. New York: Basic Books, 2005.
  • Ransome, David R. "Newport, Christopher." American National Biography. New York: Oxford University Press, 1999, 16: 354–355.
  • Rountree, Helen C. Pocahontas, Powhatan, and Opechancanough: Three Indian Lives Changed by Jamestown. Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2005.

Sources

  1. 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 Wikipedia contributors. "Christopher Newport." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 3 Jun. 2020. Accessed 21 Jun 2020.
  2. 2.00 2.01 2.02 2.03 2.04 2.05 2.06 2.07 2.08 2.09 2.10 2.11 2.12 2.13 2.14 2.15 2.16 2.17 2.18 2.19 Salmon, John. Christopher Newport (1561–after August 15, 1617)." Encyclopedia Virginia. Virginia Foundation for the Humanities, 7 Jun. 2016. Web. 6 Jul. 2016.
  3. Stith, William. The History of the First Discovery and Settlement of Virginia. 1747, p. 42-3. Williamsburg: William Parks.
  4. https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/jamestown.htm
  5. https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/firstsupply.htm
  6. https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/secondsupply.htm
  7. New England Historic, Genealogical Society. The New-England Historical and Genealogical Register for the Year 1876. Vol XXX (30), No 4. Oct 1876, p. 415. Boston: Published at the Society's House.
  8. Baptism: "England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"
    Original data: England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975. Salt Lake City, Utah: FamilySearch, 2013; FHL Film Number: 595417
    Ancestry Record 9841 #30912271 (accessed 22 November 2023)
    Jane Newport baptism on 21 Jul 1594, daughter of Christofer Newport, in Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England.
  9. 9.0 9.1 9.2 Waters, Henry F. Genealogical gleanings in England: Abstracts of Wills Relating to Early American Families with Genealogical Notes and Pedigrees Constructed from the Wills and from Other Records. Vol. II.1907/1969, p. 874-6. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company.

See also:

  • Stephen, Sir Leslie, ed. Dictionary of National Biography, 1921–1922. London, England: Oxford University Press, 1921–1922. (Indicates that birth is est at 1565.)
  • Jamestowne Society: Newport, Christopher - A5711; died 1617, 1607, 1610 (Councillor). accessed 24 June 2020
  • Ancestry.com. US and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s.
  • Ancestry.com. Virginia, Compiled Census and Census Substitutes Index, 1607-1890.
  • Godfrey Memorial Library, comp. American Genealogical-Biographical Index (AGBI). Ancestry.com Operations Inc.
  • Wikidata: Item Q1086874, en:Wikipedia help.gif

Prior Wikipedia References

  1. Fiske, John (1900). Old Virginia and Her Neighbours, p. 58. Houghton, Mifflin & Co.
  2. Captain John Smith. Jamestowne Society website. Archived from the original on 5 Jul 2007. Retrieved 14 Aug 2007. Link expired, 31 Dec 2006. [Editor's note: Please see substitute link for Jamestowne Society.
  3. a b Fiske (1900), p. 98.
  4. a b Wikipedia Ref #4 - expired link, unable to be retrieved
  5. CAPTAIN THOMAS GRAVES: 1608 Settler of Jamestown, Virginia, and His Descendants (ca. 1580-2005). Accessed 21 Jun 2020.
  6. Robinson, Gregory & Goodison, Robin R. The William and Mary Quarterly. Vol. 16, No. 4. Sarah Versus Susan. Oct 1936, p. 515-21.
  7. Fiske (1900), pp. 146–49.
  8. Commonwealth of Kentucky. Office of the Secretary of State. Land Office. "Newport, Kentucky". Accessed 4 Sep 2013.
  9. Hariwch: Remembering a hero, retrieved 8 Sep 2007
  10. Houston Chronicle Article on Unspecified Descendant Christopher Newport. Accessed 21 Jun 2020.




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Comments: 22

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I am pretty sure Marian is his daughter. First of all, when I looked up my family on Ancestry, it shows her middle name as Jane, and so she could be the one referred to as Jane in the will. Everything that I have researched about her fits into the category of her being Capt. Newport's Daughter. It does say in the will that Jane had many injustices to him and the family, so it makes sense that he probably didn't give her that much. Also notice in the top how it doesn't say, "Father of Molly, John, Christopher, and Jane," but instead, "Father of Molly, John, Christopher, and Marian" I have done enough of this stuff to understand that many people in my family and for thousands of years before, sometimes didn't go by their first name except on legal documents, which could be why on the legal documents we see (besides the will) she is Marian. Also, in most sources, it shows her being born in 1611 instead of 1615, which if i'm not mistaken, might be Jane's birth date. It is also plausible that there could have been an infant Newport named Jane who died young, and so when Marian came along they names her Jane and that's what she went by. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen that happen in my family line. There is a big gap between Elizabeth and Marian, but as I said, Jane 1 could have died young which is why there aren't any records of her. All in all, I am quite confident in the fact that Marian Newport, and Jane Newport, are, in fact, the same person.
posted by Savannah Bradley
Hello Profile Managers!

We are featuring this profile in the Connection Finder this week. Between now and Wednesday is a good time to take a look at the sources and biography to see if there are updates and improvements that need made, especially those that will bring it up to WikiTree Style Guide standards. We know it's short notice, so don't fret too much. Just do what you can.

Thanks!

Abby

posted by Abby (Brown) Glann
Fascinating individual; I just learned a whole bunch more about American history.

I'm concerned with the length of this bio and that most of it appears to be copy/pasted from two sources. I also see a fair amount of duplication that could benefit from some editing.

Any one of the profile managers or people on the Trusted List care to take this on?

posted by Jillaine Smith
Hi Jillaine,

I've detected at least a couple of snippets that appear to be copy / paste material directly from the Wikipedia article.

I have some skill at properly dealing with family tree referencing, too, which is another area that can be addressed that will streamline the profile some.

I will wait until the Profile Managers have a chance to address this, before having a go at it. Do you have this on a reminder for when to follow-up, again?

Thanks.

posted by Porter Fann
Fann, it's been over two weeks since my message and none of the profile managers have responded. Thank you for volunteering to clean it up. Go for it. Thank you.
posted by Jillaine Smith
Biobuilders review and updates are complete for this Notables profile, on behalf of US Southern Colonies.

Regards, Fann

P.S. A large amount of text was taken out because it was direct copy and paste from either Wikipedia or Encyclopedia Virginia. Profile readers are encouraged from within the narrative to explore the links.

Additional "Prior Wikipedia References" (subheading) listed in the profile may not need to be kept, and it should be considered whether two bibliographies of suggested further reading are really warranted.

The profile is lacking in direct sourcing, and relies heavily on rewriting of material from Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Virginia. At this point, the narrative has been significantly unduplicated and a future review might be warranted to see if any of the bibliographic material is worth exploring to locate more original sources.

Perhaps the best cited source is Genealogical gleanings in England, from which their sourcing could also be pursued further, but which reproduced his will and that of his namesake.

posted by Porter Fann
Fann, Thank you! This is looking much better. One thing is that there is a bunch of stuff under the Birth and Family header that is related to voyages and such. Seems like that needs to be pulled out of "Birth and Family" and put under some other header. I'll jump in and do that now.
posted by Jillaine Smith
That looks and flows so much better - I knew it could be further improved.
posted by Porter Fann
I did the necessary merge but he's not part of my primary focus on WikiTree so I took my name off his trusted list. Good luck to those of you remaining. He's an interesting person!
posted by Jack Day
Newport-1233 and Newport-237 appear to represent the same person because: similar dates, same child
posted by Robin Lee
Newport-986 and Newport-237 appear to represent the same person because: was set as unmerged match, unclear about what additional information is needed to merge these profiles. Same dates, and description.
posted by Robin Lee
Newport-1230 and Newport-237 appear to represent the same person because: Duplicate
posted by Dave Rutherford
Notes on Adm. Christopher Newport:

On May 13, 1607, three small English ships approach Jamestown Island in Virginia--The Susan Constant of 100 tons commanded by Adm. Christopher Newport, carrying 71 persons and, according to Daughter's of the American Revolution, carrying two Bragg teenagers; the Godspeed of 40 tons commanded by Capt. Bartholomew Gosnold carrying 52 persons; and the Discovery, a pinnace, of 20 tons carrying 21 persons, commanded by Capt. John Ratcliff.

posted by David Parker
This is a very interesting note. A daughter (though apparently not mentioned in the will), Molly (Newport) Bragg married Thomas Bragg, who might have been of some kin to the teenagers on The Susan Constant...

Do you / the DAR have any additional detail on the Bragg teens?

posted by Porter Fann
This is getting too much! First I found my daughter's 9xGGF (Stephen Hopkins) on her father's side on both the Mayflower AND the Sea Venture. Then I found her 10XGGF on my side on the Sea Venture. Two weeks ago, I found her Mayflower GGF with Edward Doty, who is also her 10XGGF on her father's side.

Today I find that, also on my side, Captain Christopher Newport is her 12XGGF—it's just great! I would not have found this if I hadn't Googled who had REALLY married Jean Pierre Bondurant. It was not Rhoda Faure.

posted by Sister Anderson
Captain Christopher is my 13xGGF!
posted by Savannah Bradley
Captain Christopher is my 13xGGF!
posted by Savannah Bradley
Captain Christopher is my 13xGGF!
posted by Savannah Bradley
Captain Christopher is my 13xGGF!
posted by Savannah Bradley
Newport-740 and Newport-237 appear to represent the same person because: based on family, these are intended to be the same person
posted by Robin Lee
Robin,

Should this be a protected profile? Bob

posted by Bob Keniston Jr.
UNKNOWN-242835 and Newporte-2 appear to represent the same person because: dates depend upon which source you look at, Wikipedia sources also conflict
posted by Robin Lee