Berthe
of Gloucester
formerly Ballon aka de Pîtres
Born about in France
Daughter of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Wife of
Walter (FitzRoger) de Gloucester
— married
1087 in England
Descendants 
Died [date unknown]
[location unknown]
Profile last modified
| Created 12 Apr 2014
This page has been accessed 8,399 times.
Contents |
Biography
Research Notes
Not the daughter of Dru de Ballon
No evidence has been found that she was the daughter of Dru de Ballon and she has been disconnected from that profile.
Charles Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
"Walter of Gloucester married Berthe, daughter of . . . "Walterus de Gloucestria, assensu Milonis filii mei et Berthæ uxoris meæ" donated "ecclesiam de Cernay…ecclesiam… Sanctæ Helenæ de Halgestane…terram…de Westwode in Herchenefelde" to Gloucester St Peter by undated charter[328]. The Complete Peerage suggests that Berthe was a relative of Hamelin de Ballon Lord of Abergavenny, citing the passage from the Historia fundationis cum fundatoris genealogia of the priory of Abergavenny quoted above[329]. However, there are two difficulties with this hypothesis. Firstly, it is Walter, not his son, who is described as “consanguineo” of Brien FitzCount, suggesting that the relationship must have been through Walter’s parents not his wife. Secondly, doubt exists about the relationship between Brien FitzCount (generally identified as the illegitimate son of Alain IV Duke of Brittany, although the primary source which confirms that this affiliation is correct has not yet been traced) and Hamelin de Ballon, as discussed more fully in the document WALES (Lords of Abergavenny). The Complete Peerage also cites[330] the undated charter under which “Willielmus de Braosa” confirmed donations to Abergavenny Priory by “Hamelinus de Balon et Brientius comitis filius et Walterus de Herefort et Henricus de Herefort”[331]. This document does suggest a close relationship between the two families. However, a family connection through the mother of Miles of Gloucester is not the only possibility. Walter & his wife had [three] children[1]:
- Miles of Gloucester, Earl of Hereford (d 24 Dec 1143)
- Matilda (m. Richard FitzPons)
- _ _ _ _ _. (Had child Renaud, d 25 Aug 1149)
Did Walter marry Emma instead?
- Some modern sources make the spurious claim that Walter married Emma, sister of Hamelin de Balun.
- This was put forward by the herald Robert Glover, apparently in an attempt to explain the association with the lordship of Abergavenny. Brian fitz Count granted the honour of Abergavenny to Miles of Gloucester between July 1141 and December 1142, Empress Matilda issuing a charter confirming the deed. Abergavenny bordered Miles’s honour of Brecknock, solidifying his base in the region. [2]
Sources
- ↑ http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm
- ↑ Reed, Paul C. "The Seymour Family of Hatch, Somerset, and de la Mare Family of Little Hereford" (2010) p. 229, footnote 76.
- Weber, Jim. "The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest," RootsWeb.
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B > Ballon | O > of Gloucester > Berthe (Ballon) of Gloucester
Are you managing this profile? Just curious. It's a year later.
Thanks, - Isaac
There are no people on the trusted list and thus your questions were known only to me. That is why I always suggest a post on G2G as opposed to a comment on a profile. If you have researched this person in the last year and have answers, please provide them before the merge. Thanks.
1) Can we be more specific on her birthplace?
2) Do we have a contemporary placename? Pays-de-la-Loire is an ahistorical/modern construct.
It doesn't bode well if we don't have a source, don't know where she's from, who her parents are and we're not making progress a year after the comments below. Is it time to consider whether this is a fictional person? Or a conflation of people?
3) Is this the same Emma whom Cawley asserts is wife of Arnoul de Hesdin? Or is perhaps the later Emma who married Reginald fitz Count who d. ~1146, ie FitzRoger FitzOsbern?
4) Neverminding what Dru de Balun's name really was and how we ought to spell it... are there perhaps multiple of those (incl. earlier AND later) whom secondary sources have conflated?