John (Saye) Say (abt. 1425 - 1478)

Born about 1425 in Sawbridge, Little Berkhamstead, Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, England

Husband of Elizabeth (Cheney) Saye — married after 11 Nov 1446 in England

Husband of Agnes (Danvers) Fray — married before 9 Oct 1474 in England

Descendants

Died 12 Apr 1478 at about age 53 in Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, England

Biography

Father John Saye^[1]

Mother Alice (Maud)^[1]

Sir John Say, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Speaker of the House of Commons, Under Treasurer of England was born circa 1425 at of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, England; He may have been the son of William Say, instead. He was brother to William Say, Dean of the King's Chapel, Master of the Hospital of St. Anthony, Dean of St. Paul's; and of Thomas Say.^[2][1] He married Elizabeth Cheney, daughter of Lawrence Cheney, Esq., Sheriff of Cambridgeshire & Huntingdonshire, Escheator of Bedfordshire & Buckinghamshire and Elizabeth Cokayne, circa 11 November 1446; They had 3 sons (Sir William; Sir Thomas; & Leonard) and 4 daughters (Anne, wife of Sir Henry Wentworth; Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Sampson, Esq; Katherine, wife of Thomas Bassingbourne; & Mary, wife of Sir Philip Calthorpe).^{[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][1][15][16][17][18]} Sir John Say, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Speaker of the House of Commons, Under Treasurer of England married Agnes Danvers, daughter of Sir John Danvers and Alice Verney, before 9 October 1474; They had no issue.^[9][1][17] Sir John Say, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Speaker of the House of Commons, Under Treasurer of England left a will on 10 April 1478.13 He died on 12 April 1478; Buried at Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, with his 1st wife, Elizabeth Cheney.^[9] His estate was probated in October 1478.^[9][1]

Question of Parentage

"It is not known for sure who were John Say's parents or when he was born, but it is possible that he was descended from the family of Geoffrey, Baron de Say (c. 1305-59), himself a descendant of William de Say and his wife Beatrice, sister of Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of Essex. On one occasion he is referred to as "Finnes the Speaker", and it seems likely that he was closely connected with the family of James Fiennes, Lord Saye and Sele, who was himself descended from a younger daughter of Geoffrey, Baron de Say. He may have been the son of John Say of Podington (Beds). He was certainly the brother (probably the younger brother) of William Say, doctor of theology, formerly of New College, Oxford, who by 1449 was Fean of the King's Chapel and Master of the Hospital of St. Antony in London, and who retained these preferments as Archdeacon of Northamptonshire (in 1464), down to his death in 1468, when John Say acted as his executor. It is probable that the Speaker, as well as his brother, had attended the schools at Oxford as a member of the University."^[19]

"This lady, m. 1st, Sir John de Fallesley; 2ndly, Sir W, Heron, but d. without issue, whereupon her aunt, Idonea de Say (Lady Clinton) became the heiress of the estates of William, Lord Say and Baron of Sele, and the title fell into abeyance between the descendants of Lady Clinton and Lady Fiennes. In 1447, Lord Clinton gave up his claim, and Sir J. Fiennes was created Baron Say and Sele."

"Sir W. Heron had summons to parliament as Lord Say, but dying without issue, and important manor and seat of the family of Sawbridgeworth afterwards came into the possession of John de Say, and upon his death, to Sir John Say, Knt. Sir Henry Wentworth m. Anne, dau of Sir John Say; Margery, dau. of Sir H. Wentworth, m. Sir John Seymour, and was mother of Edward, Duke of Somerset, the Lord Protector, and Jane, second wife of Henry VIII., mother of Edward VI."^[20]

"SAY, SIR JOHN (d. 1478), speaker of the House of Commons, is doubtfully said to have been the son of John Heron (d. 1468), son of Sir John Heron (d. 1420), nephew and heir of Sir William Heron (d. 1404). The last-named was styled Lord Say in right of his wife Elizabeth, sister and heir of John de Say, baron Say (d. 1382) [see under SAY, GEOFFREY DE]. But this pedigree has been credited with a fatal flaw ; for John Heron, who died in 1468, apparently had no children (cp. CLUTTERBUCK, Hertfordshire, iii. 195 and CHAUNCY, Hertfordshire, i. 342, 8vo ed.) It is nevertheless certain that Say was descended, probably through a female, from the house of Geoffrey de Say, and, if we reject the Heron pedigree, we may assume that his family name was Fienes or Fiennes, as he is called at least once (Paston Letters, ii. 131)."^[21]

• See Notes, below, for more.

Property

Sawbridgeworth Manor

"Elizabeth Lady Say died without issue in 1399. Heron, who was summoned to Parliament as Lord Heron from 1393, and is generally considered to have been styled Lord Say, (fn. 34) obtained many of his wife's estates, including Sawbridgeworth. Maud Bosenho, daughter of Elizabeth de Alden, one of the co-heirs of Elizabeth de Say, quitclaimed her right in the manor to him in 1401. (fn. 35) He died seised in 1404, (fn. 36) his nephew John, son of his brother John, being his heir. The extent taken at his death mentions that the capital messuage was then ruinous. Sir John Heron died in 1420 and was succeeded by his son John, (fn. 37) who in 1460–1 settled Sawbridgeworth on himself and his wife Agnes in tail with contingent remainder to Brian Rowcliff and other feoffees. (fn. 38) John Heron died in 1468 without issue. (fn. 39) A few months afterwards the feoffees conveyed the manor to Sir John Say, who died seised of it in 1478. (fn. 40) His son Sir William Say died in 1529, leaving two daughters, of whom Mary wife of Henry Bourchier, Earl of Essex, inherited Sawbridgeworth. (fn. 41) Their daughter and heir Anne, wife of William Lord Parr, had livery of Sawbridgeworth on her father's death in March 1539–40. (fn. 42) Lord Parr, who was created Earl of Essex in 1543 and Marquess of Northampton in 1547, was attainted in 1553 (fn. 43) and Sawbridgeworth came to the Crown."^[22]

"Parties: David Malpase and Agnes his wife, late the wife of John Heron & John Say, knight, John Cheyne of Fen Ditton (Dytton) co. Cambridge, kt., John Boteler of Walton-at-Stone co. Herts., Esq. John Alyngton Esq., and Thos. Edward; Place or Subject: The manor of Sawbridgeworth (Sabrysford alias Sabrysworth). County: Herts"^[23]

"Grant by Thomas Ripplyngham and Nicholas Stathum (executors of the will of John Heron), Brian Rouclef, Thomas Graunte, clerk, and John Croke, to John Say, Knight, John Chene of Dytton, co. Cambridge, knight, John Boteler, of Watton at Stone, John Akyngton and Thomas Edward, of the reversion of the manor of Sabrysford alias Sabrysworth, and of the reversion of all other lands &c. which the grantors held in Sabrysworth to the use of the said John Heron: Herts."^[24]

"Parties: John Say, knight, John Cheyne of Fen Ditton (Dytton) co. Cambridge, kt., John Boteler of Watton at Stone co. Herts., Esq., John Alyngton, Esq., and Thos. Edward & David Malpase and Agnes his wife, late the wife of John Heron, Esq; Place or Subject: The manor of Sawbridgeworth (Sabrysford alias Sabrysworth). County: [Herts]"^[25]

Stapleford Manor

Date: Two weeks from Easter, 35 Henry VI [1 May 1457].

Parties: John Noreys, esquire, John Say, esquire, Robert Chamberleyn', Henry Fraunceys and Michael Conygraue, querents, and John Brome and Agnes, his wife, Thomas Malter and Agnes, his wife, Margaret Fitz John' and Thomas Horne and Isabel, his wife, deforciants.

Property: 2 messuages, 1 water mill, 260 acres of land and 20 acres of meadow in Stapelford', Bengeo and Dacheworth'.

Action: Plea of covenant.

Agreement: John Brome and Agnes, Thomas and Agnes, Margaret and Thomas and Isabel have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Say, as those which the same John, John Noreys, Robert, Henry and Michael have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Agnes, Agnes, Margaret and Isabel to John Noreys, John Say, Robert, Henry and Michael and the heirs of John Say for ever.^[26]

"This Manner I guess, was afterwards divided between two Daughters and Coheirs of the Bardolfs ; whereof one married Patchington, from whom her Share was called Patchington and the other Sister's Part was termed Waterford from the Situation thereof; both which Manners were afterwards conveyed to Sir John Say, Kt, and Thomas Leventhorp, Esq. who by their Deed dated the 26th of October, 14 Edw. IV. granted it to George Newport, Esq. Son and Heir of William Newport, Esq. and Hugh Clayton, who by their Deed dated the 6th of November, in the same Year, conveyed them to Sir John Say, Sir John Cheiny, and Sir John Heningham, Knights ; William Allington of Botesham, John Ansley, William Allington Son of John Allington, John Battesford, Ralph Baud, Thomas Leventhorp, Henry Langley of Rickling in Essex ; Henry Lollingsworth, in the County of Cambridge, Esq. Henry Turnor, Ade Ulier, Rector of Westmill, and John Hamond, and their Heirs."^[27]

• 14 Edw. IV (1474)

Lawford Hall

"Lawford Hall belonged to Harold and William the Conqueror, and for some time continued part of the domains of the Crown. It belonged in the 12th century to the family of le Breton, and passed in the end of the 13th to Sir Benet Cockfield, in whose heirs it remained until sold in 1424 to the famous Humfrey, Duke of Gloucester. Upon his death it came to Henry VI. as his heir, and was granted by that King to Sir John Say, who was Speaker of the House of Commons in 1449. His granddaughter Elizabeth brought this estate to her husband, Sir Wm. Blount, Lord Mountjoy, the protector of Erasmus, "the noblest of the learned, and the most learned of the noble." Lord Mountjoy's daughter and heir, Gertrude, married Henry Courtenay, Earl of Devon and Marquis of Exeter ; and upon the attainder of the Marquis and his wife, their property was forfeited to the Crown. This Manor was purchased from Queen Elizabeth by Edward Waldegrave, third son of George Waldegrave, of Smallbridge, Suffolk."^[28]

Baas Manor

"Ten years later it was conveyed to John Say by John Edward and Joan his wife, (fn. 68) brother and sister-in-law of Thomas Gloucester. Sir John Say died seised of Baas in 1478 and was succeeded by his son William, (fn. 69) after whose death in 1529 it passed to his daughter Mary and her husband Henry Earl of Essex, (fn. 70) and thence to their daughter Anne, the wife of William Lord Parr, created Marquess of Northampton in 1547. (fn. 71) The marquess was attainted in 1553 and his lands forfeited. (fn. 72) Queen Mary granted the manor to the Earl of Arundel and others in 1553, to hold during pleasure, apparently to the use of Anne Marchioness of Northampton. (fn. 73) Elizabeth granted it in 1569 to Sir William Cecil, (fn. 74) who also obtained releases of title from Anne Parr (fn. 75) and other heirs of Sir William Say. (fn. 76)"^[29]

Bedwell Manor

"Elizabeth de Say, Baroness Say in her own right, who had married Sir William Heron as her second husband, being his first wife, had died without issue in 1399, and after her death Sir William Heron continued to be summoned to Parliament till his death. (fn. 45) He died in 1404, having married secondly Elizabeth Boteler aforesaid. (fn. 46) After his death Elizabeth his widow married, as above mentioned, John Norbury, but she retained the title of Lady Say till her death in 1464. (fn. 47) She was married again to Sir John Montgomery at some date unknown before 1433, (fn. 48) and after 1412, when she is named as the wife of John (not Henry) Norbury (fn. 49) and widow of Sir William Heron. (fn. 50) Her heir was her grandson John Norbury, who in 1465 received licence to enter into all possessions that came into the hands of Henry VI or Edward IV by the death of John Norbury the elder, or of Elizabeth Lady Say his wife. (fn. 51) In Hilary Term 1465–6 John Norbury the younger conveyed the manor to Sir John Say, (fn. 52) who died in 1478 seised of the manors of Bedwell and Little Berkhampstead, and was succeeded by his son William Say. (fn. 53)"^[30]

Manor of Hooks and Pinnacles

"In 1449 William Say, clerk, John Say and Lawrence Cheyne his [father]-in-law (fn. 233) were listed as tenants of a group of manors including Hooks. (fn. 234) Sir John Say died in 1478 holding Hooks and Pinnacles of the Abbot of Waltham. (fn. 235) He was succeeded by his son Sir William. (fn. 236) In 1515 Robert Turbervyl, at the request of Sir William Say, granted this manor to Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk, steward of Waltham Forest during the minority of John de Vere, Earl of Oxford. (fn. 237) Dorothy, daughter and heir of Sir William Say, brought this manor to her husband William, Lord Mountjoy. (fn. 238) Their only daughter Gertrude married Henry Courtenay, Marquess of Exeter, in 1519, and the manor subsequently came into Exeter's possession. (fn. 239) In 1539 he was attainted and this manor was forfeit to the Crown. (fn. 240)"^[31]

Manor of Hokes

"B. 241. John Edward', brother and heir of Thomas Gloucestr', having demised to Ralph, Lord Sudeley, John, Lord Beauchamp, Richard Neuton, knight, John Fray and others, and to Robert Cooke the manors of Baas, Perers, Geddynges, Langtons, Foxton', Marions and Halles, with their appurtenances in Brokesborne, Hoddesdon, Cheshunt, Amwell, Wurmeley, and elsewhere co. Hertford, and also the manor of Hokes co. Essex, which had descended to him upon the death of his said brother, and the same having been subsequently demised at his request by the said Robert Cooke to William Say, Andrew Oughgard, John Say, Laurence Cheyne, Philip Boteler, John Cheyne, and William Port, he thereupon granted a release of his right to the said manors, &c., to the last named parties. 28 August, 26 Henry VI. [1447]"^[32]

Family 1

• Elizabeth Cheney b. c 1422, d. 25 Sep 1473

Children

• Sir William Say, Sheriff of Somerset, Dorset, Essex, & Hertfordshire, Burgess of Plympton, Justice of the Peace for Hertfordshire.^{[11][12][13][14][1][15]} b. c 1452, d. 4 Dec 1529
• Anne Say^{[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][1][15][16][17][18]} b. c 1453, d. bt 25 Feb 1484 - 22 Oct 1494
• Elizabeth Say^{[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][1][15][16][17][18]} b. c 1455, d. a 25 Feb 1484
• Mary Saye^[17] b. c 1465, d. b 1504

Family 2

• Agnes Danvers b. c 1408

Knighthood

"Robert continued to sit as judge during the reign of Henry VI., and was, notwithstanding the Lancastrian tendencies of his house, reappointed on the accession of Edward IV. in the year 1461. Moreover, he was one of the noblemen and gentlemen who were chosen for the honour of knighthood on the occasion of the coronation, of the Queen. His relatives, John Say and John Plomer were also amongst those who were knighted — * knights of the sworde ' Metcalfe, in his ' Book of Knights,' calls them ; but we have' not been able to discover any other * order of the sworde ' than a Swedish order founded in 1628, and refounded in 1748."^[33]

Notes

The inquisition of Elizabeth de Say was in 1404, upon the death of her husband, William Heron, Lord de Say. There was some dispute between the Fiennes and the Clintons, and the title of Say goes into abeyance. However, William's nephew, John, son of his brother John, and his nephew's son, John, maintain the manors, until 1468, when the last John Heron in that line died without issue, according to inquisition. Those Johns were still sometimes called Lord de Says (Burke's).

Now, in 1404, Roger was listed as the heir to Elizabeth de Say. However, in 1447, before Roger's death, his brother James becomes 1st Baron Saye and Sele, and his descendants carry on that title, none of the next handful being named John. Yet, out of that mix of consecutive John Herons/Lord Says seemingly ending without an heir, Clintons and Fiennes disputing the titles for four decades, and the Fiennes heir jumping from brother to brother, appeared a new John Say, in control of the same properties at Sawbridgeworth/Sayesbury, and handing it down to his heirs.

Some accounts make him another Heron, but that contradicts the post mortem inquisitions. Some speculate as to whether he could be another Fiennes. Joan de Say and William Fiennes did have a son John, as well as William, Roger and James' father. Could William have had a younger son, John, named after his brother? Could the nephews have named a child John, after their uncle?

Douglas Richardson, however, rules out the Fiennes possibility:

""As far as I know, Sir John Say's parentage has not been confirmed. Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 states that his parents were John Saye, of Poldington, Bedfordshire, and his wife, Maud. To date, however, I have not seen any evidence to confirm or deny this statement. Whatever the case, Sir John Say was definitely not a member of the Fiennes family, nor was he descended from the baronial Say family."^[34]

Other, unconfirmed, possibilities (Podington & Ickenham):

"John Say, of Podington" ^[35]

"I assume it is due to the similarity of arms that people have assumed that John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, might be the father of Sir John Say (died 1478), of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire. I don't know if the John Say who heads the London visitation pedigree is the same person as John Say, of Podington, living 1442, who left a widow, Alice, but if so, the visitation might be an indication that Alice was a Colbroke by birth." ^[36]

"Sir John Say the Speaker is placed in the pedigree as a branch of the Say family of Ickenham, Middlesex, whose ancestry is traced back to a certain Hugh Say, of unknown place, who married _____, a daughter and heiress of Robert Colebrooke."

"Just why Sir John Say's family is attached to the Say family of Ickenham, Middlesex is not explained, but from other sources I've learned that the Say family of Ickenham bore the same coat of arms as Sir John Say the Speaker." ^[37]

That pedigree would make him the son of a WIlliam Say. Douglas notes that the pedigree does have errors, though. ^[38]

The Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth) gives him four brothers, but unknown parentage, and has the Colebrook connected to his brother, Robert, rather than through a John or a Hugh (or are there multiple Colebrook connections?). This account also gives Sir John and Elizabeth four more children, Thomas, Leonard, Anne, and Catherine. ^[39]

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. V, p. 70-71.
2. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV, p. 129-130.
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1} The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 92.
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1 4.2} Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 206-207.
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1 5.2} Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 740-741.
6. ↑ ^{6.0 6.1 6.2} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. I, p. 444.
7. ↑ ^{7.0 7.1 7.2} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 110.
8. ↑ ^{8.0 8.1 8.2} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 237-238.
9. ↑ ^{9.0 9.1 9.2 9.3 9.4 9.5} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV, p. 129-130.
10. ↑ ^{10.0 10.1 10.2} Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV, p. 389.
11. ↑ ^{11.0 11.1 11.2 11.3} Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 418-419.
12. ↑ ^{12.0 12.1 12.2 12.3} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 162.
13. ↑ ^{13.0 13.1 13.2 13.3} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. 218.
14. ↑ ^{14.0 14.1 14.2 14.3} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. 615.
15. ↑ ^{15.0 15.1 15.2 15.3} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. V, p. 292-293.
16. ↑ ^{16.0 16.1 16.2} Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. V, p. 432.
17. ↑ ^{17.0 17.1 17.2 17.3 17.4} Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 207.
18. ↑ ^{18.0 18.1 18.2} Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 381.
19. ↑ Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England, Volume 2, pg 154 [1]
20. ↑ Index to Burke's dictionary of the landed gentry of Great Britain & Ireland, pg 287 [2]
21. ↑ Dictionary of national biography, pg 387 [3]
22. ↑ 'Parishes: Sawbridgeworth', in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London, 1912), pp. 332-347 [4]
23. ↑ The National Archives, Kew, Reference: E 326/6065 [5]
24. ↑ The National Archives, Kew, Reference: E 40/5148 [6]
25. ↑ The National Archives, Kew, Reference: E 326/6006 [7]
26. ↑ CP 25/1/91/117, number 179 [8]
27. ↑ The historical antiquities of Hertfordshire, pg 530 [9]
28. ↑ The Tendring Hundred in the olden time, pg 80 [10]
29. ↑ 'Parishes: Broxbourne with Hoddesdon,' in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London: Victoria County History, 1912), 430-440, accessed March 14, 2016, [11]
30. ↑ 'Parishes: Essendon,' in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London: Victoria County History, 1912), 458-462, accessed March 15, 2016, [12]
31. ↑ 'Waltham Holy Cross: Introduction and manors,' in A History of the County of Essex: Volume 5, ed. W R Powell (London: Victoria County History, 1966), 151-162, accessed March 16, 2016, [13]
32. ↑ 'Deeds: B.201 - B.300,' in A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds: Volume 1, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1890), 235-244, accessed March 11, 2016, [14]
33. ↑ Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth), pg 109 [15]
34. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah [16]
35. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah [17]
36. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah [18]
37. ↑ Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah [19]
38. ↑ Middlesex pedigrees, as collected by Richard Mundy in Harleian ms. no. 1551, pg 160 [20]
39. ↑ The Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth), pg 195 [21]

See also:

• Douglas Richardson 2012 post on SGM" https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/YvpZZyFBjWc/m/BWFU_H5HPWYJ
• Wikipedia page. (Note: Doesn't source parentage.)