Joseph Wall (abt. 1646 - abt. 1727)

Born about 1646 in Surry County, Virginia [uncertain]

Descendants

Died about 13 Apr 1727 at about age 81 in Surry County, Virginia [uncertain]

Problems/Questions Profile managers: Laurie Pitman [send private message] and Bryan Sypniewski [send private message]

Biography

Joseph Wall was born about 1646-1650. He first appeared in records in Surry County in 1666 when Thomas Pitman made him a deed-of-gift and named him as “son-in-law” ^[1]. The designation "son-in-law" at the time meant generally related via a marriage - most commonly either the husband of a daughter or a son brought into the marriage - e.g. a son of the wife, who had a different father.

Surry Co., Deeds book 1, 275. 4 Sep 1666

Know all men by these presents that I Roger Potter do for myself my heirs assigns for satisfaction in hand rec'd, deliver unto Thomas Pittman for the use of Joseph Wall his sonn in law, one black heifer of age of two years and a half, marked by a crop in the right ear a slit in the crop, in the left ear a half crop, which heifer &? I do warrant her to be my own estate and said Joseph Wall shall herever have her as his own. Wit: Will Coker, Christopher  ? Roger (RP) Potter

Know all men by these presents that I Thomas Pittman do for myself and Joseph Wall my sonn in law do deliver unto Roger Potter his heirs & assigns for satisfaction in hand rec'd by receipt of a heifer, one white sow and six shoats all marked with a half crop in both ears with warranty against all claims what soever as Roger Potter's own goods for ever as witnesseth my hand, the 4th Sept 1666

Thos. Pittman

To receive personal property does not imply very much about Joseph's age in 1666. There are a number of reasons that his father in-law could have represented him in court, and minors could receive personal property. However, this record hints that Joseph may not yet be old enough to simply receive the gift. If this is the case, Joseph would not have been born much before 1650.

Joseph shows up in tithable records in 1673 in Surry County, meaning he was born by 1657. Another record helps narrow down when he was born - he and wife Susan show up on a land transaction in 1676. He would have to be at least 21 in 1676.

Joseph shows up in land transactions in the 1680s and was certainly an adult by that time ^[2].

Joseph Wall Jr first shows up in the Surry County tithable records in 1696, so this son was born by 1680.

Many researchers have chosen 1649 as his year of birth. It seems to fit all of the available records reasonably well.

Joseph married twice. He first married Susannah Kilpatrick, by 1676 ^[3].

Children of Joseph Wall by his wife Susannah Kilpatrick were:

1. Joseph Wall, b. in Surry County in 1680, m. Mary (___) in Surry County, and d. probably in Edgecombe Co., N.C., after 16 Feb 1741.
2. Richard Wall, b. in Surry County in 1684, m. Lucy (___) in Surry County and d. in Northampton Co., N.C. after 29 Feb 1752.
3. Jeremiah Wall, b. in Surry County in 1687 from the Surry County tax records ^[4] and d. probably before reaching adulthood as he is found only once in Surry County tax records.
4. James Wall (probably), b. in Surry County about 1689, m. [Unknown] in Surry County, and d. in Surry County after 23 Nov 1723. He is not mentioned in his father’s will (see Will, below) but does buy land from him.
5. John Wall, b. in Surry County about 1690, m. Mary (___) in Surry County, and d. in Surry County after 6 Aug 1763.
6. Elizabeth Wall, b. in Surry County on an unknown date and d. probably in Surry County after 19 April 1727. She is mentioned only in her father’s will and there is no indication of whom she married.
7. Robert Wall, b. in Surry County on an unknown date and d. probably in Surry County after 19 April 1727. He is mentioned only in his father’s will.”^[5]

He then married Alice (___) in Surry County, Virginia by 14 July 1718 ^[6].

The second part of the Forrest King article, quoted above, provides a handy summary of the last part of Joseph Wall’s life, and his children:

“Joseph Wall (stepchild of Thomas Pitman, born about 1649 and died in Surry County after 19 April 1727. He married Susannah Kilpatrick, daughter of James Kilpatrick of Surry County by 1676 and Alice (___) in Surry County by 14 July 1718.^[6]

Susannah died in Surry County after 6 Sep 1708^[7]and Alice died after Joseph Wall. Alice was probably previously married but her first husband’s name is not known."

Joseph died in 1727.

Will

Forrest King provides a convenient summary^[5]:

Joseph Wall was discussed previously in connection with his being called the son-in-law of Thomas Pitman. Joseph Wall bought and sold several tracts of land during his lifetime. He was frequently found on jury duty ^[8]. and occasionally in a lawsuit. He lived to be over 75 years old, which is a very long life for someone in the 1700s. He made his will on 19 April 1727."

Joseph Wall died prior to 19 April 1727 in Surry County as the abstracted version of his will shows:

"Wall, Joseph. Leg. ? To son, James Wall, 100 acres bought of Thos. Miller ... to the land of James Wall. To son, John Wall, Bible, Sarment Book, tools, etc. To daughter, Elizabeth, one chest, etc. To son, Joseph Wall, 5 shillings. To son, Richard Wall, 5 shillings. Rest of estate to my wife, and son, Robert Wall, after my funeral expenses are paid. Makes son, John Wall, Exer. Prob: 19 April 1727. Wit: Robert Lancaster, Thomas Pittman"^[9][10]

Research Notes

Joseph Wall is thought to be the progenitor of the current "Wall" testers matching the current "Captain Thomas Pitman" line in both the Wall Project and the Pittman Project. As such, he has a yet-to-be-determined biological relationship to Captain Thomas Pitman. This preliminary conclusion is based on Wall/Walls who ostensibly trace back to Joseph Wall matching Pittman/Pitmans who ostensibly trace back to Captain Thomas Pitman and DNA time estimates placing the MRCA in roughly the timeframe of Captain and Joseph. Many of the referenced testers cannot definitively trace their lines back to one of these two, with sparse or entirely absent records connecting their 1800s ancestor back to Joseph or Thomas. The DNA and autosomal DNA results continue to shed additional light on this brick wall.

Note: The relationship of Joseph Wall to "father" Thomas Pitman was, as posted on the "Andersons of Colonial N. Carolina" website: Step son, Son in law, or A bastard son of Pitman.^[11] Lou Poole favors step-son.^[12]. Forest King also favors step-son. There is strong evidence of Joseph Wall's genetic connection to Thomas Pittman through Y-DNA testing, as mentioned above and in the CTP DNA Study. ^[13] This would likely make Joseph Wall either a son, nephew, or some similar genetic relationship to Thomas Pittman.

Joseph's Y-DNA and possible relation to the Pittman surname is mentioned here: CTP DNA Study

There has been speculation that Joseph Wall is the son of Richard and Francis Wall and was baptized Dec 25 1657 in Westminster, London, England. Francis Wall may have later married a Thomas Pitman. However, there are no sources. This profile was once connected to Thomas (Pittman) Pitman I (1614-1691). Profiles should be connected to parents only, not step-parents, on WikiTree, so the profile was detached. IF sources are found that this profile is a 'son' of Thomas Pitman, then it can be re-attached.

I (needs attribution) believe the following records, imply that Joseph Wall’s wife was Susannah Kilpatrick, not Susannah Pittman or Potter.

Surry County, Virginia, Deed Book 1 p.53 2 Nov 1697 ^[14]

"Joseph WALL with wife Susannah to Roger WILLIAMS, 70 acres on the south side of Cypress Swamp (land part of a patent for 1850 acres granted to Capt. William CORKER, decd., on 6 Aug 1671) which 70 acres was sold to James KILPATRICK [Jr.] on 5 July 1690 by Mr. George Branch and wife, Susanna Branch who was one of the daughters of Capt. William Corker, decd. When James Kilpatrick [Jr.] died the land descended to his only daughter Sarah KILPATRICK who died in her minority, and the land descended to her aunt, Susannah WALL, the wife of Joseph WALL); wit Dionisius (signed) WRIGHT, Joseph (signed) COREN, and William (signed) FOREMAN;

signed Joseph (IW) WALL and Susannah (x) WALL.

James Kilpatrick Sr. was dead by 1 May 1677 (VASUR-CC3 p. 60, 61).

On the same day, James Kilpatrick Jr. chose Joseph Wall as his guardian, which indicates he was age 14-21.

Needs edit and attribution; speculation:

After a large Wall-Pittman Y-DNA study, we must accept that the relationship between Joseph Wall and Thomas Pittman is a blood relationship, not a relationship by marriage. if this is a conclusion, we need to see the documented lineages back to Joseph and Thomas - what testers are we referring to? Wikitree profiles?

The following records prove that the relationship of Joseph Wall to Thomas Pittman is son-in-law, but at that time Son-in-law could mean the usual son-in-law, step son, or illegitimate son was the term son-in-law used to mean illegitimate son? - what is the source supporting this usage? . The first two relationships do not (typically) result in a blood relationship, so Joseph Wall must (ed: may) be the illegitimate son of Thomas Pittman. This apparently accounts for the need to register the following records, as there would seem to be no need to, for a regular son-in-law or step son.

Research Conclusion:

Y-DNA studies prove there is a blood relationship between Joseph Wall and Thomas Pittman rather than one via marriage (i.e. "son-in-law") which was frequently used with a much broader meaning at that time. ed: the Y-DNA study cannot prove such a relationship; there is an estimated close relationship between various testers who are part of the project, some of which think they descend from Joseph, but the research does not currently prove that lineage, nor does it prove the precise relationship between the person at the top of the "Pitman" branch and the person at the top of the "Wall" branch. Refer to the project

Wife of joseph was previously Susannah Pittman-849, as described here incorrect. So spouse has been changed to Susannah Kilpatrick, daughter of James Kilpatrick.

The only reason Joseph Wall’s wife was called Susannah Pittman, was based on misinterpreting the phrase son-in-law, prior to having the Y-dna results. There is no evidence, otherwise, that Thomas Pittman had a daughter, Susannah.

The above is submitted by Lee Bain-1212. It is in contradiction with some of the comments for this profile, so I have not removed any of the comments. Some agreement, and editing is needed here.

Joseph Wall The following excepts were taking from the "Wall Family - Book 3, Chapter 4" by Lou Poole^[15] ed: the current copy of this report is labeled "not for publication"

Sources

1. ↑ “Surry County Deed Book 1, p. 275” – Haun, Weynette Parks, Surry County, Virginia, Court Records (Deed Book I) 1664 thru 1671, Book II, p. 27; “Surry County Book I, p. 275” – Davis, Eliza Timberlake, Surry County Records, Surry County, Virginia, 1652-1684, p. 57.
2. ↑ Early Virginia Families Along the James River Vol.3, by Louise Pledge Heath Foley, p.103, Richard Smith, 230 acres, 20 Apr 1684, for example.
3. ↑ Surry County Records, Book II, via Ancestry.com, abstract page number 101, from p.124, Joseph Wall and Susan Wall to Richard Jordan; witness Chris Holleman and Thomas Pittman Jr.; original date 1671, recorded 1676
4. ↑ “MacDonald & Slatten, op. cit., v. 24 (Aug 1986), p. 82” – “Descendants of Thomas Pitman (1614 – about 1686) of Surry County, Virginia,” by Forrest King, The Virginia Genealogist, Vol. 49, No. 4, Oct-Dec 2005, p. 297.
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1} Descendants of Thomas Pitman (1614 – about 1686) of Surry County, Virginia, by Forrest King, in The Virginia Genealogist, Vol. 49, No. 4, Oct-Dec 2005, (quarterly); Editor: John Frederick Dorman; pp. 296-297.
6. ↑ ^{6.0 6.1} Descendants of Thomas Pitman (1614 – about 1686) of Surry County, Virginia, by Forrest King, in The Virginia Genealogist, Vol. 49, No. 4, Oct-Dec 2005, (quarterly); Editor: John Frederick Dorman; p.296, referring to Surry County Will Book pp. 133-34
7. ↑ Descendants of Thomas Pitman (1614 – about 1686) of Surry County, Virginia, by Forrest King, in The Virginia Genealogist, Vol. 49, No. 4, Oct-Dec 2005, (quarterly); Editor: John Frederick Dorman; p.296, referring to Surry County Deed Book No.6, p.23
8. ↑ Haun, Surry County, Virginia, Court Records 1691-1700, Book V (Durham, N.C., 1991)
9. ↑ “Book 7, p. 684” – Davis, Eliza Timberlake, Wills and Administrations of Surry County, Virginia, 1671-1750, p. 134.
10. ↑ Wills and deeds (Surry County, Virginia), 1652-1907, Wills and deeds, No. 7 1715-1730, Family Search Film # 007645823 Screen# 724 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9PX-29DK-V?cat=366316
11. ↑ "Andersons of Colonial N. Carolina", "Joseph Wall - Surry to Edgecombe", written by anderson1951, posted 28 October 2012, accessed 23 February 2021.
12. ↑ James L. (Lou) Poole. "Wall Family" (North Carolina GenWeb : 2016).
13. ↑ FamilyTreeDNA's "Wall Y-DNA Project" & "Pittman Y-DNA Project"; note that neither project is able to conclude at present what relationship may exist between Thomas and Joseph. The relationship is deduced based on testers who think they descend from Thomas matching testers who think they descend from Joseph.
14. ↑ Wills and deeds (Surry County, Virginia), 1652-1907 Wills and deeds, No. 5-6 1694-1715 Film # 007645822 Screen# 159-161 p. 143/145 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9PX-V39Q-3?i=158&cat=366316
15. ↑ Wall Family - Book 3, Chapter 4 - https://www.ncgenweb.us/richmond/wallloupoole.pdf

Acknowledgement

• Wall-2015 was created by Bryan Sypniewski through the import of LentVise3b_2014-10-20.ged on Oct 20, 2014.