Walter FitzOther (abt. 1037 - aft. 1100)

Born about 1037 in Windsor, Berkshire, England

Descendants

Died after 1100 after about age 63 in Windsor, Berkshire, England

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Biography

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This profile is part of the Gerard Name Study.

NOTE: Please do not add any legendary connections not based on documentary evidence to this family. Discuss any new evidence first. The parents of Walter FitzOther are UNKNOWN - except that, as in the Domesday Book, his father's first name was, "Other". (This may not be confused with, for example, Otho Gheraldini of Florence)

Parentage

NOTE: The Earls of Kildare gave Walter FitzOther a fictional Florentine pedigree through Dominus Otho di Gheraldini of Florence.^[1] Adding disproven connections to the Wikitree family-tree is incompatible with Wikitree's mission and policies.

Keats-Rohan describes Walter as Norman and says that his father's name suggests a link to Western Normandy, "perhaps a brother of Ranulf fitz Other who occurs in acts of Saint-Etienne de Caen (Actes caen., pp. 53, 76, 107, 108)".^[2]

(Nevertheless the unusual name has led to many speculations in old antiquitarian books that it must be an Anglo Saxon name. As Round remarks, Domesday Book actually makes it clear that Walter's lands had been held by Anglo Saxons who were not named Other.)

Position and Properties

Walter Fitz Other was a warden of all the forests of Berkshire and castellan of Windsor during the reign of William the Conqueror. ^[3]

Keats-Rohan reports that:

As forester, he angered the monks of Abingdon by taking four hides in Winkfield to increase the forest of Windsor; he and his wife Beatrice and son William, subsequently restored them to Abbot Faritius (Chron. Abing. ii, 7, 132).

In the Domesday record, Leofweard "man of Walter fitzOthere" is recorded against a large number of manors in Berkshire. (folio: 61v) the name of Walter fitzOther himself is recorded against the manors of Bucklebury and Wallingford in Berkshire; Allington, Barton Stacey, Bentley in Mottisfont, Burghclere, Compton, East Cholderton, Eversley, King's Somborne, Longstock, Malshanger, Newton Stacey, Rhode, Selborne, Soberton, Sopley New Forrest, West Dean Wiltshire, Will Hall, Woodcott in Hampshire (folio: 48v); Itchen Stoke, Leckford, Liss, Penton Grafton, Winchfield in Hampshire (folio: 43v); Carshalton, Pepper Harrow, Wanborough, West Clandon in Surrey (folio: 36r); East Bedfont, Ilesworth in Middlesex (folio: 130r); Grendon Underwood in Buckinghamshire (folio: 151r) Walton-on-Thames in Surrey (folio: 36r) ^[4]

Marriage

As Round reports,^[1] according to old books such as old versions of Burkes and The Earls of Kildare, Walter FitzOther married Gladys, daughter of Rhiwallon-ap-Cynvyn, Prince of North Wales.^[5]

Round however believed these accounts were wrong and demonstrated that Walter FitzOther married Beatrice, who is mentioned as his wife in contemporary records. ^[6]

known children -

• William FitzWalter (died c. 1154 -1160)
• Gerald FitzWalter (died before 1136)

There are also some more children proposed by Round based on surname, and listed by Keats-Rohan. These are intended to explain the use of the surname Windesor in a group of East Anglian families, some of whom also used the surname Hastings. Clarence-Smith, who wrote the most recent and definitive articles on these families, is critical of the logic and suggest the surname needs no such explanation.^[7]

• Reginald de Windsor, a dapifer to Queen Adeliza.
• Maurice de Windsor steward of Bury St Edmund (died after 1130)
• Possibly a daughter who married a member of the Hastings family of Little Easton. This is a solution Keats-Rohan suggests as an adaptation to Round's proposals.

Death

Walter FitzOther of Windsor died after 1100, when property documents link him with the Abbey of Abbingdon.^[8] He was succeeded by his son William between 1100 and 1116.^[9] As Round explains, it is in 1116 at the latest that a document appears showing William had taken over as forester.

Descendants

Other was succeeded in the manor of Burnham by his son, Walter Fitz-Other ^[10]

He was ancestor of the FitzGerald and Carew families, as shown by JH Round.^[1]

• Windsor of Stanwell. ^[11]

Fictional Pedigree

• Fictional pedigree mashup seen here (including/up to Cosimo Gherardini) ^[12]

Research Notes

Alleged marriage to Gladys

a.) FitzOther m. Gladys ferch Rywallan ap Convyn, Prince of North Wales. (Collins, 1756, p. 38. citing Earl of Kerry's pedigree attested by Sir William Seager [Garter King of Arms] in 1615.[1]) ... Collins (1756), goes on to state that Kerry's pedigree is contradicted, "But by Vincent ... Beatrix is made to be his wife."[2]

b.) PER CURT -- I originally had Gwladus verch Rhiwallon, wife of Rhys ap Tewdwr, as a 2nd wife of Walter. In a post-em Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com, cleared up some of the mystery, while opening up several more (see below), his post-em begins with my note expressing doubt:

"Her marriage to Walter Fitz Other is indicated in many internet sources. However it is not backed by Burke's Peerage. Additionally her daughter Nesta is documented to be the wife of Walter's son Gerald Fitz Walter which would not have been likely if Gerald's mother were Gwladus. She may have been mother of some of Walter's children, instead of Beatrice?"

Perhaps the answer to your above quandary is the possiblity that the Gladys/Gwladys that married Walter fitzOtho was not the dau of Rhywallon ap Cynfyn, Prince of Powys. Turton indicates Walter's wife was Gladys dau of Havallon ap Eynfyn Prince of North Wales (no further info on him). My notes do not show that Turton listed a second marriage for Walter to Beatrice.

This, if true (& with Turton, that's a BIG if), would eliminate the problem of the son of Walter marrying the dau of Gwladus verch Rhiwallon.

Regards,

Curt

The mystery is that Turton, n.d. (p. 144),^{[citation needed]} states that Walter's wife is Beatrice (agreeing with CP (X:10), AR (line 178-2) & BP (p. 1679)). I cannot find any other mention of Walter or Gladys verch Havallon in Turton's book, although I can't guarantee that it isn't there. I see that Mike Hofemann, who may be related to Curt, has the same information in his World Connect database (mhofemann) and uses Turton and Paul McBride as sources, yet "Ancestors of Paul McBride" states that Walter's wife is Beatrice. Maybe Turton & Paul McBride changed their pedigree, yet I don't think that Turton has been updated since 1928 when it was first published. I am eliminating Gladys/Gwladys as a 2nd wife of Walter until such time as a valid source indicates that it is so, since all four published sources seem surprisingly unanimous in stating that Walter's wife was Beatrice.

Dwyn (1846), gives Nest, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr and Gwladus vh Rhiwallon, as the wife of Gerald of Windsor,[3] son of Walter. No mention of a marriage between Gwladus and Walter.[4]

• William FitzWalter (d. 1154/60).[5][6]

m. UNKNOWN.[7]

• (disputed) Robert, Lord of Eston (Estains), Essex.[8][9] - Line dies with the Hastings;[10] Cawley (2006), does not record Robert as a known child of Walter FitzOther.[11]. See notes on Robert (FitzWalter) de Windsor

• Gerald.[12]

m. (1100) Nesta ferch Rhys (Rhese of South Wales).[13][14] - "Nesta of Wales, daughter of RHYS ap Tudor Mawr King of Deheubarth [South Wales] & his wife Gwladus".[15][16]

• Maurice (d. after 1130).[17]

• (dau) _____.[18]

m. Robert FitzWalter (father: Walter "the deacon").[19]

Merged profile

Merged profile Unknown-280007 gives Walter FitzOther birth about 1037 in Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales & death about 1101 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales or Hampshire, Middlesex, Surrey, England

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Round, Origins of the Round, J. H. (1902), "The Origin of the Fitzgeralds I", The Ancestor, 1. archive.org link
2. ↑ Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, p.455
3. ↑ Peerage of England page: 38 by Arthur Collins pub: 1756
4. ↑ The National Archives : fitzothere
5. ↑ The Earls of Desmond by James Graves in The Journal of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland; Third Series: vol: 1 no: 2 (1869) pp: 459-498 pub: Royal Soc. Antiquaries of Ireland (available as a Jstor pdf)
6. ↑ Untitled English Nobility : Windsor
7. ↑ See Clarence Smith J. A., (1966 and 1968), "Hastings of Little Easton", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2 (in two parts). "Round, who so castigated the unfortunate Clark for uniting all the Hastings families into one, has committed the same sin with his Windsors." (p.111)
8. ↑ Untitled English Nobility : Windsor
9. ↑ Sanders, Ivor John. English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327. United Kingdom: Clarendon Press, 1960. p.116.
10. ↑ The History and Antiquities of the County of Buckingham vol: 3 page 165 by George Lipscomb
11. ↑ CAUTION: The Stanwell branch is not related to the Westmoreland branch, i.e. -- Sir William, Baron Windsor, husband of Alice de Perrers (mistress of Edward III), is NOT a descendant of Walter FitzOther. Note that early secondary sources by Burke and Collins err in trying to mix the branches.
12. ↑ Sir Alexander Mackenzie of Skye Tarbat Royston Cromarty pub: Paul K.F. Mackenzie

See also

• Peerage of England Containing a Genealogical and Historical Account of All the Peers of England, Now Existing... Their Descents and Collateral Lines: Their Births, Marriages, and Issues... Deaths, Places of Burial, Monuments, Epitaphs... Also Their Paternal Coats of Arms, Crests, Supporters and Mottos ... by Arthur Collins pub: 1756
• Burke, J. (1833). .A General and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage of the British Empire, (Vol 2., pp. 300 - 301). H. Colburn and R. Bentley. Google Books.[20]
• Dwnn, M. (1846). Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the Marches, between the years 1586 and 1613; ed. with notes by Samuel Rush Meyrick, p. 99. Google Books.[21]
• Domesday Book.[22]
• Lloyd, J.E. (1912). A History of Wales from the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest], (Vol 2, pp. 767). Google Books.[23]
• The Peerage. Web.[24]
• Round, (1902). The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities, (1), pp.120 - . Archive.org. eBook.[25]
• The Origins of the Fitzgeralds part 1 by J. Horace Round pub: 1902 in The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities
• Carew, Rivers. Footprints in the Sand: The Story of the Carews of Devon 1086-1945. United Kingdom: DuBois Publishing, 2018.
• Old Pembroke families in the ancient county palatine of Pembroke by Owen, Henry, 1846-1919 Publication date 1902 Page 10 ff
• Wikipedia contributors, "Walter FitzOther," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Walter_FitzOther&oldid=1164017374 (accessed August 6, 2023).
• Medieval Lands, Cawley. Windsor
• The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities Publication date 1902 Vol 5 Page 19ffand Vol 2 Page 98