Preferred LNAB for a Welsh profile ready to merge

+1 vote
87 views

William Lloyd ap Madoc Vychan of Llwyn Dyrys (Lloyd_ap_Madoc_Vychan-1 and Ap_Madoc_Vychen_of_Llwyn_Dyrys-1) are ready to be merged. Please could someone familiar with early Welsh surnames advise the preferred LNAB for the final profile. He is mentioned on this page - http://www.maximiliangenealogy.co.uk/burke1/Royal%20Descents/hughesofgwerclas_3.htm

Thanks!!

Gillian

in Genealogy Help by Gillian Thomas G2G6 Pilot (152k points)

2 Answers

+2 votes
Well his name is William ap Madoc so neither is correct. Lloyd would be a middle name, William his first name,  and ap Madoc his LNAB.
by Joe Farler G2G6 Pilot (111k points)
Thanks Joe! I was thinking neither was correct. Appreciate your help!
+3 votes
1535 was a watershed year in which the Laws in Wales acts were passed, applying English law to Wales and making English (rather than Welsh) the official language of Welsh government.  As a result, 1535 speeded up the process of Welsh people adopting English naming customs and abandoning patronymics.

Before 1535, as this profile is, it is reasonable to assume that the man's birth name was a patronymic and that William ap Madoc would be the correct name at birth.  However, if Madoc was already known as Vychan, then ap Madoc Vychan might be the better LNAB.

One difficulty with names in this period is that the English were already ruling Wales and individual names could reflect English influence.  Did this man use the English form William or the Welsh equivalent Gwilym?  I understand the Welsh "f" as in Fychan would sound like a "v" to an English speaker, so whatever Madoc would have spelled it -- if indeed he could read or write -- an English scribe would have heard the name and written it Vychan.  

One problem with this profile is that it has no biography and no source, so that everything we might say about it is speculation.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (349k points)
If you were to use Vychan, then fychan would be the correct spelling, as you say. As it means : “the younger”, should it go in the suffix rather than LNAB ? But William himself is not the younger so it gets confusing and ambiguous, as his father is the younger......
This is where LNABs and patronymics get tricky.  It is indeed Madoc who was "fychan" or "the younger", and we can be confident that when Madoc was born, those gathered around at the moment he was named did NOT say, "his name will be Madoc Fychan."  So Madoc acquired the designation Fychan at some point.

(anything after the "ap" refers to the father, not the son).  

However, when his son William was born, was Madoc already known as Madoc Fychan, Madoc the younger, to distinguish him from others?  If he was, then I would vote for "William ap Madoc Fychan" (William, son of 'Madoc the younger') as the LNAB, since Madoc Fychan was probably the name his father went by at the time William was born.
Thank you Joe and Jack. I've requested trusted list access to amend the LNAB. I'll check this post again for any updates before I make any changes, but if no other posts have been added, I'll use 'ap Madoc Fychan' as suggested by Jack.

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