Welsh County parameter [closed]

Question

There does not appear to be a county parameter for the Wales sticker.

{{Wales Sticker|Flintshire}} only gives the the Welsh dragon and "John Simnor was born in Wales."

Comments

Liz, I have edited  a profile with{{Wales Sticker|Flintshire}} to see the effect [[Simnor-55]]

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Steve B, You said that you were wanting to code the templates yourself, so Liz was offering to copy your modified code to the template namespace to test it. (I think that is what was going on...)

Anyways, I already have the drafts ready:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Sandbox_Steven3

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Thank you so much.

For the England Sticker the "displays as" reads 

---- ---- was born in County, England, so if you could add the Wales bit to each it would be great

see Bartlett-4194

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Steve - I added that the sticker would include ", Wales" if a county parameter was added. Did I do something wrong? There's an extra |} hanging out on the page now (below the examples table) - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Sandbox_Steven3/docs

Other than that, it looks like a go! Could you make them real? (Template:Wales Sticker already exists, but Template:Wales Flags doesn't)

THANK YOU!

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That extra |} was already there.

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Wales_Sticker is ready

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Absolutely great.

Thanks to all, especially Steven Harris, for this work

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thanks SO MUCH Steve! This would have taken me hours (and hours and...) to accomplish.

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No problems Liz! Let's hook up on another template at some point and I can give you some pointers!

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Stickers: I am not sure stickers and categories, such as for counties, need to directly correlate.

 An example would be someone born in Powys county after it was created. The category for the location might correctly be Brecknockshire. Any possible confusion could be addressed by the person adding the Powys sticker by adding explanatory wording.

 This example indicates why the decision was made to use only the 13 Historic Counties for post-1284. Modern Powys (named from the ancient Kingdom of Powys) includes Brecknockshire, Radnorshire and parts of 1 or 2 other counties. Won’t go into more detail on the rationale here.

Answer 1

Steve Bartlett - More than ok! This type of thing is pretty well out of my skill level!

Steve Harris - THANK YOU!!

Comments

It just shows that one should never throw ones bat away or ones toys out of the pram when there are members of the Wikitree community around to help.

Answer 2

As county lead can I suggest that Wales Sticker only includes the agreed historic counties not some of the more recent unitary authority names.

There was discussion on the Wales structure some time back..

Comments

Thanks Hilary! Are the counties that are currently available ok? I was just wondering about additions...  Is the list at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Wales_-_Geographical_Team appropriate? If you let me know as a county's space page with flag is added, I can update the sticker.

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Why just historic?  Don't more modern "ancestors" deserve a sticker, too?

(I know when I checked Wikipedia a number of places only had coats of arms, which are all under copyright.)

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I see that not all the 13 historic Welsh Counties have been included. This is probably because their flags are not on Wikitree, for some reason or another. I have checked a couple, Denbighshire and Radnorshire and can find no flags.

With reference to "modern" counties like Clwyd, I can find no evidence to show they ever had a flag (please prove me wrong!). They may have had coats of arms, but not, it would appear, flags.

What can I do to help?

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Liz, would it be possible for the areas not currently represented with a flag, to also be included (using the Wales flag), so those using the sticker could have it say "... … … was born in Brecknockshire" (or wherever)?  (Rather than just "name was born in Wales" - which could be left for those known to have been born in Wales, but not exactly where.  (Which might be some of my ancestors!))

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Currently, {{Wales Sticker|Brecknockshire}} will give you that ("Name was born in Brecknockshire, Wales." with the Welsh flag). I'm exploring the possibility of allowing only an approved list of locations, following the categories being established by the Wales Project. Then as flags are found (if the location has a flag), it can be added to the coding & the sticker will automatically update from the Welsh flag to the location flag.

P.S. I think that restricting what can be used isn't technically possible. If it were, I think someone would have done so by now.

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Heh, sorry .. I didn't check before asking (am trying to find a birth record and failing - although I did find her parents married in Chester) and fear making red things!

If those coats of arms were less "busy", I could try to replicate them.  But I fear my poor skills are not up to that.

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, of course, having said : 

(am trying to find a birth record and failing - although I did find her parents married in Chester)

.

I just found her, born 6 years before her parents married, under her mother's maiden surname in Chester. (It makes sense, because if she'd been born after they married, she'd have been 13 or 14 years old at her own marriage.) 

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congrats on finding her!

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Just to reiterate what Hilary said we should only use the agreed place name structure decided last year. It is a bit of a mess and work has been very slow. The 13 historic counties should have stickers, the new ones should not have stickers or categories.

This policy has been adopted from the England Project where we do not encourage the use of the post 1978 counties.

It has been a very very long confusing and mainly boring debate. I can add anyone who wishes to read it all to the chat  in which it was discussed if they are interested.

We have to have a naming standard and this is what we eventually decided. Clwyd as an example was created in 1974 and abolished in 1996 so it is highly unlikely we will ever need a category or sticker for it.

Similarly, Cardiff residents should not have a sticker saying Cardiff City but one that says Glamorganshire.

Steve, I’ve seen your PM, sorry I’ve not responded, I’ll bring you up to speed with recent history of the project :-)

Lizzie

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Hi Lizzie,

I am in the process of creating png files for the flags of Denbighshire and Brecon/Brecknockshire. If there are others you would like me to do please let me know. I am creating them because I have not been able to establish the copyright of some of the sites.

Steve

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Is there a list of the 13? I can't pick out which 13 might be the correct ones from https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Wales_-_Geographical_Team

Is the following list that I found on Geni correct? There are 13 of them... And would you like the sticker to include the Welsh/if so, how - e.g., .... was born in Sir Fôn, Cymru (Anglesey, Wales). or vice versa? I think that would mean ... was born in Cymru (Wales). for locations not coded, which looks wrong ("was born in" should be in Welsh also, if the English is in parentheses).

• Anglesey (Sir Fôn)
• Brecknockshire/Brecon (Sir Frycheiniog)
• Cardiganshire (Sir Aberteifi or Ceredigion)
• Caernarfonshire (Sir Gaernarfon)
• Carmarthenshire (Sir Gaerfyrddin or Sir Gâr)
• Denbighshire (Sir Ddinbych)
• Flintshire (Sir y Fflint)
• Glamorganshire (Sir Forgannwg or Morgannwg)
• Merionethshire (Sir Feirionnydd or Meirionnydd)
• Monmouthshire (Sir Fynwy)
• Montgomeryshire (Sir Drefaldwyn)
• Pembrokeshire (Sir Benfro)
• Radnorshire (Sir Faesyfed)

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This list is correct they have been divided into regions on the space page.

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Counties: The list of the 13 Historic counties for some  unknown reason is under the tab History on the Wales Project page. Here is the link to the list - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Wales_-_History  Scroll down to Historic (Ancient) Counties. The complete list on this page was provided by a member of the Wales government in 2016.

 Cardiganshire is the historic name. It was created in the 1240s. Ceredigion was created in 1996 using essentially the same boundaries as Cardiganshire.

 Steve Bartlett: As you surmised, official flags could not be found for some locations when this work was done in 2016. So, what you are doing is good.

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Thanks Stuart! I'll change that one. The flag, however, is clearly for Ceredigion. Is there a Cardiganshire flag?

Answer 3

Take 2. Turns out you CAN restrict the options for a parameter - and with Steve Harris's help, I think I figured it out (he set me on the right path but hasn't yet vetted the results). See

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Noland-165_Sandbox

Hilary - Let me know of any changes you'd like.

Question about one of the 13 counties: The historic county should be Ceredigionshire, not Cardiganshire, right?

Steve Harris - I couldn't figure out how to get imagetext to work without mucking about in the Wales Flag template, so I didn't use {{Wales Flag}} in the re-done template that (I hope) will replace the current Wales Sticker.

All - When a flag image is available for the four counties currently without one, just let me know the WikiTree URL for it & I can update the template.

Comments

If you took a look at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Noland-165_Sandbox earlier, the sticker has now been edited to show Cardiganshire instead of Ceredigion as one of the 13 historic counties, a link to the Wales Project's list of Historic (Ancient) Counties has been added, and changes suggested by Steve Harris have been implemented.

Answer 4

The Wales Project currently has a categorization proposal up for review and discussion on another G2G post.  Because the borders have changed frequently within Wales, there has  been much discussion on this topic.  From a categorization perspective we are recommending that post 1284 (when England's conquest of Wales became effective) we categorize by the 13 historic counties.  Otherwise attempting to categorize would go crazy.  

In the data field one should use the place as it was known to the individual on the date in the data field, so a person who was born, married and died in the same place might have it presented properly 3 different ways in the data field.

I would recommend that stickers follow categorization in this case, which would mean that this conversation really can't be completed until the categorization process -- and the associated help pages -- are approved.

Comments

the sticker is not designed to add a category, although it could (but I wouldn't recommend it, since it only has 13 parameters location options, meaning it would logically only add one of those 13 location categories).

edited to correct terminology used

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No, I was certainly not advocate that the sticker add a category -- we already have too much of that kind of mayhem -- but simply given the two models for place identification, the stickers follow the precedent being proposed for the category structure using the 13 historic counties, rather than trying to be precise for the specific moment in time as the data field tries to be -- or as opposed to inventing some even different way of addressing the problem than to follow the data field precedent or the categorization precedent!

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i think that the categorization proposal and the sticker can be finalized separately. The 13 historic counties are not going to change. Wales Project said use only the 13 historic counties for the sticker. Stuart provided a link to the Wales Project's list of those 13 counties (thank you! I've now added a link to that list on the Template page).

Since the sticker does not add a category, and can only be changed from "... was born in Wales." to 13 other options ("... was born in [this historic county], Wales."), I think that the (revised) sticker is at this point good to go, regardless of the status of the categorization proposal.

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I agree, Liz, thank you for the work on this :-)

I agree, regardless of the categorisation proposal stickers are a nice to have on the profile and as we have agreed on the 13 historic counties it would be lovely to have stickers with flags for each. It was a former member who found the flags before having to leave the project for personal reasons, I know she struggled to find a few!

Lizzie :-)

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Thanks Lizzie! And ... leave me alone with a template for a while & I start playing. There are now two options. The one that's currently on [Template:Noland-165 Sandbox] has been reviewed/ok'd by Steve Harris & there's a question pending about the flag for Cardiganshire, but that can be edited whenever (either while it's still on my Sandbox page or after it's been made "live" as the Wales Sticker).

But wait, there's more :D

IF you use two pipes, you can have just the 13 historic counties. Or you can add a more specific location to one of the 13 historic counties. Take a look at a "first draft" -

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Noland-165_Template_Testing

(It shows you what I'm talking about, but I'd need to add the templateboxes before it could go live.)

Let me know if you'd like to go with the new/improved sticker that lets you add a more specific location to one of the 13 historic counties or not. I think if you would like it, then we should get it in place sooner rather than later because existing profiles with a Wales Sticker that includes a location would need to be edited (a second pipe added, or a specific location).

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I Love this! So my Great Taid will have Llanderfel, Merionethshire, sticker with the local flag, when the template is created, instead of what I added when I created him. That is so much better :-)

Thank you again :-). I know he would want that on his profile 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pughe-9

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I'll take that as a yes then :D

I'll work on updating the take2 version & then get Steve H's blessings.

Cheers, Liz

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Diolch am bobeth a wnewch

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you're welcome :D

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I think I'm starting to get the hang of those template boxes - didn't take me too long. "take2" is now updated to accommodate a specific location within one of the 13 historic counties. See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Noland-165_Sandbox

Cheers, Liz

P.S. I'm geographically challenged, so let me know if the "more specific" locations I added don't belong in the county I added them to. Also let me know if you'd like the other counties to have examples (and if so, what to add!).

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You have told me before how much you enjoy stickers. But this is a new high. And, I love the subject. Great going!

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Thanks Stuart!

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Liz, I just read the intro to your profile, and clicked the link and I’m laughing, you do kinda like them don’t you? :-)

That is an amazing page, thank you so much. It makes it clear and understandable.

Lizzie

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Ya think? LOL.

And I've finished the update. So glad for Steve Harris! His one little "only suggestion" made it SO much better - the specific location is the second parameter... so

{{Wales Sticker|Pembrokeshire}} or

{{Wales Sticker|Pembrokeshire|Pembroke}}

Answer 5

And... Updated Wales Sticker is live. See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Wales_Sticker

Comments

Thanks Liz

Great work

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You're welcome, and thanks :D