Why is Marine Corps grouped with Army? [closed]

Question

In this category, Item 4 is titled Army / Marine.

As the Marine Corps is a branch of the Navy, I believe the references to the Marines should be relocated to Item 5, and Item 5 re-titled Navy / Marines.

Comments

Note: That guidance is not supposed to be limited to US military; I believe it is aimed at being global in scope.

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Marines were originally British soldiers who lived on Navy ships and did both land fighting and combat in close-quarters naval battles.

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It is a CATEGORY set-up help page, nothing more.

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If it's global in scope, it explains why some countries don't have any military categories. It's not always possible to fit round things into square holes.

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So true, Isabelle.

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Kathie, I just have to say this ... As a United States Marine, I am hurt that you feel Marines (of the United States) were originally British soldiers!  That information is oh so incorrect.  It is correct that the United States Marine Corps falls under the United States Navy, and that United States Marines serve aboard US Navy vessels.  I just had to add my few cents worth ...

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Virgil, Kathie was talking about the origin of the word Marines, not specifically the United States Marine Corps (aka, Marines).

The word marine was originally used for the marine-type forces of England. Typically, marine forces in non-English speaking countries have names that translate in English to naval infantry or coastal infantry. 

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In New France days, we have the ''Compagnies franches de la marine'', translating as Marine companies for simplicity.  They were under different hierarchy than the land troops, and got sent to the various colonies.  They arrived on ships, but were not in fact attached to any particular ship, and served on land.  So it's definitely approriate to list them under armed forces, the term ''Army'' may be the misleading factor here.  Modern-day usage of the term splits troops into Army, Navy, Air-Force.  Wasn't so always.

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Yeah, it is a little weird feeling being like if you follow it, 'Corps', and then as you stated, we are a department of the Navy and should be placed in their space. Nobody placed the Coast Guard with Eagle Scouts, and they actually did remove/move the Air Force after WWII, from the Army Air Corps
That's where I beg a little difference, the Army is that, and there way is different, similar does not get it done with Marines. Not being harsh, and unless things have changed considerbly. I'm not sure how to insert a Marine Air Wing  at Santa Anna MAG 12 or 13, or was that Yuma. Hmmm...anyway it seems wrong.
It comes to mind, and hear me out please, we Brother, we are the Presidents Own from as long as I can remember hearing it too. We could maybe just bring it from the odds and ends area if all else fails. And I know, some presidents are more desirable to be associated with but my look at it is if there were no Marines, there would be no president, so we wear all of them regardless of our opinions...just sayin. Semper Fi

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A big Semper Fi to you Rusty.  I was re-stumbed accross this G2G post looking for something else.  Still bothers me to be placed with the Army, heck for that matter being placed with the Navy (LOL!)  When the Navy does budget cuts ... the Marine Corps gets hit first.  It is nice that they give us rides all over the world in their boats!  Sorry just had to put that in there, as several of my Uncles and Cousins went Navy, some Army and one Air Force.  I was the only one that went Marine Corps.  For those that still want the Marines with the Army, send them to stand on the yellow foot prints and go through boot camp.  Ok sorry all, that is my Leatherneck rant and rave of the year.  Do you know why Marines are called Leatherneck's? Hey, do not cheat and use google!!!

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hehe Virgil, this thing is 2 years old, but your commenting on it brought it up for me.  Just to give you another perspective, in 17th and 18th centuries, there were what were called ''détachement des compagnies franches de la marine''.  Detachments of free companies of the navy would be the closest translation for it.  I used Marine companies to New France, since that was where those I was interested in went.

Captains recuited men in France (on contract), they were under the French navy technically, but got sent as troop detachments on land mostly.  Once the contracts were over, lots of them stayed here, have a number of ancestors of that ilk. 

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Yes Danielle I know it is an old post.  I was searching for an answer to something else and this popped up, just had to add yet another dumb comment, sorry

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same arguement again - this organization reminds me of the armed forces - make a decision good or bad then stick to it.

hopefully some day common sense will prevail and the proper geneological aspects will be put in place

Answer 1

That page is supposed to assist people in creating landing level categories for military units. Marine units are set up similarly to Army units, so that is why they are together on this page.

Comments

Seems odd to have the structure set up so those familiar with the military don't understand it.  If the structure isn't intuitive,  perhaps an explanation could be added???

I realize this is a complex task to organize!!   The WikiTreers working on the Military categories have been awesome.

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If you look at the structure, Marines fall where they belong and they are NOT under the Army. (I haven't looked at all countries, but am familiar with the US M&W cats.)  

The Marines use units similar to Army units and even AF or Navy when the Air units are categorized.  The page was set up to show users how to set up categories for the units as they fall under their groups, wings, etc.

Answer 2

That page is not limited to the United States, but operates as a global assistance for military work. For the most part, Marine forces such as the Royal Marines do operate under the Royal Navy, however there have been points in time where the Marines have operated under the Army such as a specific period during the United States' involvement in WWII.

Considering that this page does not have a lasting effect on our tree (that I can see, at least), I don't think that its necessary to change anything. However, I do propose that the page could be written that way due to confusion considering that the Marines operate on land? I don't know.

Comments

United States Marines operate on Land, Air and Sea.

Answer 3

I think grouping the Marines with the Army  (even considering the global perspective)  seems very off,  in fact,  I know some marines that would be shocked at the thought.    This is certainly important enough for careful study before leaving it as is. 

Even if  U.S. Marine units served under the Army in WW  I,  they don't today and throughout most of history have been associated with the Navy.    ......  The British marines are part of the Royal Navy......   The Australians don't use the term  "Marines" but some of their Navy trains with the U.S. Marine Corps at times.  Also training with these units at times is the  Canadian Marine Commando Regiment (MCR).

Wikipedia uses this definition (not specific to US forces):   Marines, also known as naval infantry, are typically an infantry force that specializes in the support of naval and army operations at sea and on land and air, as well as the execution of their own operations. In many countries, the marines are an integral part of that state's navy.

    

Just saying,  I agree with Gary's proposal.

Edit:  A quick look reveals:

The Spanish don't have a  "marine" corps. 

The French include their Marin Corps in the French Navy.

The Germans are as follows:  Seebataillon (plural Seebataillone), literally "sea battalion", is a German term for certain troops of naval infantry or marines. ... In 2014, also the modern German Navy established a naval force protection unit called Seebataillon.

Comments

Thanks for best answer Susan!

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I removed the BA, sorry. This page is for setting up categories and the units within the Marines. They are set up similarly to Army units,which is why they are together here.

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Thanks, Peggy. We have another case of multiple meanings for a single word, here. The Marines are marines. The US Navy is a navy. The US Army is an army. The categories need to be organized either by proper nouns, or ordinary nouns, but not mixed. A simple explanation for this should be in the category description, since many people do not at first recognize this distinction.

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Like that, thank you Peggy McReynolds. Also I don't believe I have heard of any MAU's either, Marine Expeditionary Unit.

Answer 4

Why should Marines be grouped with the Army? The missions of the Army and the Marines are vastly different. If we don't want to group Marines with the Navy, let's also NOT group them with the Army. To compromise, I propose we separate them into an individual category instead of subordinating them to another group. Let's give them their due.

Comments

The US was already set up that way:https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:United_States_Marine_Corps

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Thanks for clarifying that Natalie!       From my perspective,  it's still confusing having the Army/Marine categories together..... even if they're the same  "structure" the example doesn't clear that up.  The Air Force and Navy are provided their own category  "example"..... and since the  Army/Marine example doesn't mention they're at the same level,  many people may be confused about how to handle Marine units.    

I've been impressed with the Category work you've accomplished and hope you realize it's appreciated!

Answer 5

If we're going by U.S. history, the groupings would be more like:

Army (created 1775) -->  which created the Army Air Forces (1941), which later became a separate branch called the Air Force (1947)

Navy (created 1798)  --> which sort of formally established the Marines, which essentially became its own separate branch in its inception in 1834.

Although as already mentioned, this is just a Free Space page and not really necessary to be historically accurate, unless that was the aim of the person who put it together.

Comments

Genealogy and history are not separate from each other. Genealogy is history from the perspective of the person, and history is genealogy from the perspective of the events that occurred around those persons.

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To the rear, MARCH! Scott!

The United States Marine Corps was OFFICIALLY established on 10 Nov 1776 in Philadelphia at Tun Tavern!

The birthday is widely celebrated every year on every station and base in the WORLD, combat zone to the White House!

OOOORRRRAAAAHHHH!!!!

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Well, that's sort of true, but sort of not. The "Continental Marines" were established then, but the more formal USMC was not established until 1798. In either case, I appreciate the clarification as the Marines in one form or another have been around for a long time.

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"Once a Marine, Always a Marine"

Answer 6

Just give us our due respect. We've certainly earned it!  Where are you going to put the Space Force; under the Air Force just because they operate in the sky/air???? I think not! Give every branch of any country their proper review.

Six immediate family members in the Corps, in four wars with three Purple Hearts just since 1940! Sorry that some would think this would be too much trouble.

Semper Fi!

Ron Floyd