welsh royalty gateway ancestors?

+5 votes
129 views

Question on the definition of a "gateway ancestor":

While there are "gateway ancestors" traced back to British Royalty and Magna Carta Surety Barons, are there not any "gateway ancestors" tracing back to Welsh Royalty?

I've got quaker ancestors in Gwynedd, Montgomery, Pennsylvania who are from Welsh and there have been books written showing their Welsh connections many generations back into Wales and show they are connected to "welsh royalty". Wikitree has many listed. 

Has anyone on WikiTree, looked in to the veracity of these claims? I haven't seen any peer reviewed genealogies on this, like Gary Boyd Roberts, Douglas Richardson, et al. Do these exist for Aristocrat Welsh ancestry? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Its so incredibly difficult to know who to trust in early ancestries....

Any help would be greatly, appreciated. Thank you. Cheers, Nate

P.S. In question are Ellis-3263 and Hughes-3469

WikiTree profile: John Hughes
in Genealogy Help by Nathan Pyles G2G2 (2.8k points)
retagged by Richard Devlin

Ellis's profile doesn't have any parents attached, with a note in the text: "Removed reference to parents until better documentation can be found." So first step for him would be documentation to show who his parents are.

I crawled around Hugh's tree... difficult, since his father's profile has four profiles attached as wife, and it's not clear whether or not there are two different wives.

Anyway, on Hugh's tree - check out https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Herbert-1388 ... her profile has some good sources (and TudorPlace, which isn't, but might give you some leads). Catherine Herbert's WikiTree branches show she's a descendant of Davy Gam ([his profile] also has some good sources).

2 Answers

+5 votes
by Richard Devlin G2G6 Pilot (286k points)
The phrase "Gateway Ancestor" could be confusing because it has specific meanings to specific projects.  For instance, in the Magna Carta Project, it refers to a verified descendant of a Magna Carta surety who immigrated to North America and is included in Douglas Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry and its sequel, Royal Ancestry.

This has led to discussions about Magna Carta surety descendants who emigrated elsewhere, for instance Australia or New Zealand, but there has been no recognized work identifying and documenting such persons.

I am not aware, either, of any parallel work documenting overseas descendants of Welsh royalty.  My ancestor Sampson Waring crossed the sea from Shrewsbury, England to Virginia and Maryland;  several generations earlier his ancestors were descendants of Welsh nobility, and given the penchant of Welsh nobility for honoring long pedigrees, Sampson Waring is clearly the kind of "gateway" you describe.  

It's just that there is no organized way of calling him that, in distinction from people who aren't called that!  There would need to be a definition of gateway from where? gateway to where? and gateway recognized by whom?.
+3 votes

As Jack said, the definition varies. From the Magna Carta Project's Glossary:

Term

Short Answer

Project Page(s)

gateway ancestor (lowercase)

any ancestor, usually the immigrant ancestor, who is descended from royalty or other notable (such as a surety baron)

n/a

Gateway Ancestor

as used by the project, one of the 200+ immigrant ancestors listed by Richardson in his Magna Carta Ancestry

Category:Gateway Ancestors

by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (424k points)

ps - I went to Llywelyn the Great's profile & checked to see if I recognized anyone in the Descendants view...

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Vere-320 has the Magna Carta Project's "Trail Pending" project box* & text that says he's in a trail from the Richardson-documented Gateway Ancestor Richard Palgrave to a surety baron & shows up WikiTree as a descendant of Llywelyn the Great. See the [Magna Carta Project section] on Palgrave's profile for details more information about his Magna Carta trail. I can't vouch for the validity of the connection between Llywelyn and de Vere.

Also, I knew that Gateway Ancestor Bevan was from Wales, so I checked his relationship to Llywelyn... WikiTree says he's Bevan's 16th great grandfather. So, if the connection returned by WikiTree's Relationship Finder** is valid, there's another gateway to Welsh royalty.

As an aside- I've never been able to figure out how Llywelyn the Great had descendants, when King John went to great lengths to make sure he didn't.

Cheers, Liz

 * The "trail pending" project box means that the Magna Carta Project has not yet validated the trail in WikiTree. See [Base Camp] for more information about Magna Carta trails.

** https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Bevan-62&person2_name=ap_Iorwerth-26 (then click the button for 30 generations)

pps - Bevan's profile has links to online publications that might be helpful: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bevan-62#Sources

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