The Norwegian Tartan [closed]

0 votes
493 views
closed with the note: I'm sick of being bullied and silenced on this thread.
in The Tree House by Anonymous Vaughan G2G6 Mach 2 (22.2k points)
closed by Anonymous Vaughan

2 Answers

+7 votes
There is no such thing as a "Norwegian Tartan". Neither do I get why my father's profile is attached to this highly dubious posting, which I've reported as possible spam.
by Leif Biberg Kristensen G2G6 Mach 9 (97.1k points)
I don't recall that anyone accused Willie of signing up for the sole purpose of spamming. However now he is pointing to a website that provides information for those who wish to buy a bogus tartan, making rather tenuous claims of  historical context, based on nothing more than a recent registration of a tartan simply because it occurred before his post here; a registration that has everything to do with generating business and nothing to do with Scandinavian history. That's spam.

Then I will also throw in a couple of links:

https://www.internationaltartans.co.uk/national-tartans

https://www.kinnaird.net/tartan.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartan#Pre-medieval_origins

Simply posting a link does not make one's post spam, nor does it make the poster a spammer.

The criteria for that designation is not so simple.

The arguments made in those links draw a really long bow. Please provide some evidence that any ethnic groups in Sweden and Norway (apart from Scots who went there) wore tartan, what patterns they wore, on what occasions they were worn, and the relevant period in time.
I don't need to provide evidence for anything.  I was debating the point of William being a spammer or not, from the point of not -- and making the point that simply posting a link offsite does not make one a spammer.

I said that it was possible spam, from the looks of it. If it isn't then it's at least a gaffe, in my opinion.

The crucial point is probably whether Willie is making money from his tartan patterns. Perhaps that should be investigated and evaluated.

Two posts, two strawmen. No one said that simply posting a link offsite is spam.

It has been posted often enough on this site that genealogy without sources is mythology. So unless someone provides some decent evidence that tartan is historically relevant in Sweden and Norway, then it too is mythology.
Neither of the links I posted on this thread lead to pages designed to sell anything. One is to my WikiTree Free Space page where I store copues if the "wallpapers" I create, so anyone who chooses is welcome to use them as background images on Wikitree. The other link is to my website, AChristmasCarol.US, where I have NEVER sold, nor do I intend to EVER  sell anything.

Even the related links on this thread to the Scottish Register of Tartans are not intended primarily to sell anything, although, as I and Leandra Ford have mentioned, anyone can design and register a tartan for a fee. I've done this myself ONCE. But anyone can also sign up for a free account on the Scottish Register of Tartans' site, and request up to 5 thread counts per day, for free. They don't even offer to send you more than five thread counts for a fee. They don't even offer the thread counts for tartans under copyright, such as Domino's Pizza Tartan, for any amount of money. I didn't actually offer them even a small bribe for the Domino's Pizza Tartan's thread count, but I did share with them my guess, but they refused to confirm or deny its accuracy. They seem like a very "stand-up" government agency to me.
Once all of the genuine clan tartans are registered, how does the Tartan Register derive income? From allowing every man and his dog to design a tartan and register it.
Leif, I've never made a cent off any of my tartan "wallpapers"; on the contrary, they're an expensive hobby. I told you this before, but Ellen Smith hid it; she's been hiding my replies on here willie-nilly.

I feel like I'm being bullied. I make an artistic contribution, free of charge, and several of you start making snide remarks, and hiding my replies when I stick up for myself, then you preach to me about the Honor Code and being nice.

I'm done posting my artistic contributions on WikiTree. And I'm done talking to all of you about it. ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?
Willie, there is no problem with making an artistic contribution. You have an interest in tartans, you enjoy designing new ones. It would be a nice tribute to your life to choose one of your designs for your own profile. But why would I ignore my Swedish ancestors' true culture to attach a tartan called Sweden to their profile? I am not ashamed of their culture that I wish to hide it. I would not insult their memory to misappropriate another culture and false!y associate it with them. Similarly with my Scottish ancestors, if I choose to use a tartan on their profiles, it would be their clan tartan, not a recent design.
+4 votes

Anyone can design a tartan on a whim and register it.
https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/registerGuidance

How to apply to register a tartan

To apply to register a tartan, you need to have designed a unique tartan for which you must provide a threadcount, an image and a proposed tartan name. We strongly advise you to submit an application to register your tartan before having it woven to ensure it meets the criteria for registration.

Criteria for registration

The Scottish Register of Tartans Act has established clear criteria for the inclusion of a tartan in the Register:

a new tartan must meet the definition of tartan contained in the Scottish Register of Tartans Act (2008)
it must be a new design, unique to the Register, and
there must be a clear link between the person registering the tartan and the proposed tartan name.

The application for registration fee of £70 (exempt from VAT) must accompany your application. 
 

https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/aboutYourTartan

Designer
The designer of a tartan is the person who created the sett or pattern. This may be an individual or a company name. If more than one person was responsible for the tartan, please include all the appropriate surnames in this field and provide full names in the Rationale (background information) field.

Please ensure all listed designers have given their permission.

If the designer is unknown, please enter ‘Unknown’ in the designer field.


Date
Please use the drop down boxes to enter the date when the tartan was created.

If the tartan is an historical design, please provide an approximate date, or the date of any surviving evidence of when the tartan was first worn, used or recorded (as far as you are aware).


Rationale (background information)
The information you provide in this field will be used to support the proposed name and category of your tartan. It is limited to a maximum of 1,000 characters and may be edited. This information will be published on the Register if your application is successful though the Scottish Register of Tartans reserve the right to amend the wording of rationale in order to ensure that it complies with the necessary criteria.
The rationale must not contain abbreviations or any information that is not factually correct. Statements must be solely associated with the person, persons or organisation applying to have their tartan registered. Only titles recognised by the Court of the Lord Lyon in Scotland may be used in the rationale.

The rationale should ideally include details of:

  • Why this tartan was created, or registered if not a new design?
  • What prompted you to choose the tartan name?
  • For tartans designed for a specific district or location, authority is required from the local governing body or their representative. Details of the body or person providing the authority shall be included.
  • Tartans commemorating a specific event should include some background information that explains how the tartan is linked to that event. Where the event is part of an official commemoration then authority to register the design on behalf of the organisation coordinating the event should accompany the application.
  • The rationale can also include factual information that supports why the colours were selected but this is not essential.

     
by Leandra Ford G2G6 Mach 8 (85.5k points)

An interesting point:

"For tartans designed for a specific district or location, authority is required from the local governing body or their representative. Details of the body or person providing the authority shall be included."

This seems to corroborate my intial suspicion that any tartan described by the words "Norway" or "Norwegian" would need to be authorised by the Norwegian government or their representative. Otherwise, it has to be fake.

It might be warranted to present the case of the four tartans with "Norwegian" in their description on the Tartan Register web site to the proper authorities here in Norway.

The "Swedish Tartan", created and registered in 2005 was approved by the Swedish Consul General in Edinburgh at the time. It's not clear to me if he ordered the design or just nodded along, but I can imagine that he or his associates might need to appear in kilt at some type of event in Scotland.

Still, a tartan still signals Scotland rather than Sweden, even if it is blue with some yellow threads in the pattern.

https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/Category

Each registered tartan is allocated to one of nine categories. Please select the most appropriate category for your tartan from the drop-down list. A description of each category in included in the table below.

Tartan Register staff may change the category selected if they feel that it is not the most appropriate choice.

Category Description
Clan/Family A tartan to be worn by members of a Scottish clan or family as recognised by the Court of the Lord Lyon.
Name A tartan named for an individual or family.
District A tartan associated with a particular geographical area, including towns, parishes, counties or countries.
Corporate A tartan for a company or organisation.
Commemorative A tartan created to commemorate a specific public event or person.
Military A tartan associated with any branch of the armed forces, including volunteer regiments.
Royal A tartan with a direct connection to British or Foreign royalty.
Fashion A tartan created for fashion or retail, usually without any particular personal association.
Other For tartans which do not meet the criteria for any of the other categories.

 

Three of the six Norwegian tartans are categorised as fashion. For Sea Dog Bamse, Pride of Norway it states "We hope that Norwegians will adopt and wear the new tartan which honours the life of a truly remarkable wartime canine hero, whose memory remains bright in Scotland and Norway." Norwegian Centennial claims to be a district tartan: " Commissioned by Mr Arne Silvertsin, Norwegian Consul General, to celebrate the centenary of the creation of Norway. Intended for Norwegians worldwide and those associated with Norway." Guldbrandsdalen is another district tartan, inspired by one jacket in someone's possession in Norway. All sounds legit.

The Swedish tartan is simply for Swedish people worldwide and those associated with Sweden. Swedish #2 was designed and woven by Peter McDonald for a member of Perth Royal Scottish Country Dance Society (RSCDS) who wished it for a Swedish friend. Not intended as 'the' Swedish tartan, but to represent a Scottish-Swedish connection and available for any who may wish to use it.

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