What do I use for LNAB for 18th century Welsh ancestors still using patronymics

+1 vote
79 views
I've looked on G2G for similar questions and mostly people are considering this for medieval Welsh aristocracy. Mine are farmers in Wales in the 18th century still using patronymics. What do I use as the LNAB for them? And what should a wife's married name be? They often didn't bother with ap or ferch so Evan the son of Robert would be simply Evan Robert and his wife might still use her father's forename as her surname or use Roberts.

What is the acceptable standard please?
in Policy and Style by Irene Marlborough G2G Crew (340 points)
retagged by Richard Devlin

4 Answers

+2 votes

While you are waiting for a response you might like to read this 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Wales

by Marion Poole G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)
+2 votes
While English law was applied to Wales about 1535 and there was strong encouragement to use surnames rather than patronymics, as you can imagine there was significant resistance among some who saw that as giving up Welsh culture.  

The WikiTree ideal for LNABs is to "use the name they would have used."  So IMHO, the earliest record for the person would govern;  If he went by Gruffudd ap Rhys, ap Rhys would be the LNAB.  If he went by Griffith Price, Price would be the LNAB.  

It was an extended period of transition so different family members might be named differently.  I think respecting the individuals themselves, and how they saw themselves, makes it necessary to accept a certain amount of messiness in naming, and to let go of our natural wish to see people with the same LNAB from one generation to the next!

Today, in an era of Welsh nationalism, you will see people identifying themselves by patronymics rather than English surnames.  I know some countries like Iceland have very strict laws about what names can be given to newborn citizens;  I don't know whether there are laws in the UK specifying naming patterns today.  In the United States, it's pretty much "do whatever you want", although a family in New Jersey naming their child "Adolf Hitler [Jones]" lost their child to Child Protective Services several years ago.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (349k points)
+1 vote

I would agree with Jack’s answer: a last name is a last name whether patrilineal (father’s surname) or patronymic (father’s forename). This is what I did for my ancestor.

I would only add that around the time you’re considering, many people would have some records with the patrilineal form, and others with the patronymic form. For these you’ll need to make a judgement about which surname is the one the subject would have used most regularly, and I suggest putting the other as an alias (giving details in the biography).

by Anonymous Jones G2G5 (5.7k points)
+2 votes
Oh, and wife's married name?  It should follow the custom of the time, with which I'm not familiar.  But it would be wrong to willy-nilly apply American or English historic naming standards for married women.

However, if Efa ferch Gruffudd was the daughter of Gruffudd before she married Iorwerth ap Rhys, she was still the daughter of Gruffudd after she was married.

I have seen some profiles where Efa was given a Current Last Name of "ap Rhys", which in effect says that since she married, she was no longer the daughter of Gruffudd, but now she is the son of Rhys.  Please, don't give people a sex change operation when you don't know they had one!
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (349k points)

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