Is John Grant, parent of PGM immigrants, conflated?

Question

John Grant (alleged father of PGM immigrants), has two wives attached. I'm quite certain there was a Jane Watson married to a John Grant, but was he the same John Grant married to Alice Turberville. The children of Jane seem to overlap his marriage to Alice. Alice may be part of a fraudulent genealogy. There is nothing at NEHGS about Alice and very little about Jane. There is also a duplicate of John husband of Jane.

John has a nice profile, but is really short on sources.

Help please

Comments

Hello.

After looking into birth, baptism, marriage, and death records, I've come to the conclusion that these 2 John's are one in the same--not so much like identity theft, but rather split identity.

Firstly, according to the LITTLE CHUTES HISTORICAL SOCIETY.org, Alice Turberville did indeed exist, was born in 1577 in Woolbridge, with the name of her father being Matthew--which makes sense, her naming the firstborn after her father.  But here's the kicker:  Alice's first 2 children were born in Exeter-Devon, near Woolbridge.  However, my great grandfather x9 her 3rd child, Christopher, was not born in Northern England but rather back down 300 miles south in Yorkshire--in 1608, where nearly ALL of John and Jane Grant's children were born (2 years after Jane's death).  

I believe he had 2 separate families, with overlapping births from both wives.  Since divorce and remarriage (or bigamy, for that matter)  became a felonies in 1604, I suspect he felt the need to create a separate John Grant on paper, and since he was the Vicar of Caverley Parish, this would be doable.

Through various genealogies and church records, I have located 2 John Grants, one born in 1573 and one in 1568, both with parents George and Julian Clargennet.  I even found one church document that claims John Grant's wedding date to Jane Watson and his day-of-death as BOTH July 22, 1593--before he conceived 9 children with her.

It makes sense, why all 4 of John and Alice Turberville Grant's children migrated to the New Colonies, 3 of them settling together in the Watertown, Massachusetts area.  There must've been much bitterness.  My great grandfather x9, Christopher, appears to be the only one who ever spoke of his parents.  Matthew Grant (President Ulysses S. Grant's migratory ancestor) never disclosed the name of his parents.  He did, however, with "some sadness," report that "On 29 May 1640 mother...Grant had died" at Windsor, England.  (In fact, Alice Turberville died on May 31st.)

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It's a fascinating story but bigamy was exceedingly rare.  And what kind of occupation did John Grant have that would enable him to have two families so far apart?

More likely is that you ancestor was son of the Yorkshire man who was completely separate from the Woolbridge man.

Is there other evidence that connects the two families post migration?

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There may be proof that Alice Tuberville existed, but there is still no proof that she was the mother of Matthew Grant.  There is also no proof that Matthew and Christopher were related.  Descendants of both have been DNA tested and are non-matches, which would suggest we no longer even speculate of a connection between them.  It is indeed unfortunate that Matthew did not name his parents or birth location in his diary, as it would have saved us from a lot of debate later.  

The best we can do right now to understand Matthew's immediate ancestry is to study the entirety of the congregation he immigrated with to Dorchester and then Windsor.  His birth and marriage records likely burned in a church fire (Dorchester in England had several).  There are no online parish registries I can find for this semi-mythical "Woolbridge" so were anyone to have been born there it was likely in a barn without documentation.  Matthew's ancestry is likely in SW England, much like the others on the Mary and John in 1630, living within an easy ride to Crewkerne, Somerset.  We need to remember he was part of a Puritan congregation that was willing to leave England to worship in their style without hindrance and travel together to an uncertain destination.  That suggests a tight bond and similar origins with each other.  The Mary and John was not technically part of the Winthrop Fleet of ships - it left before John Winthrop.

Jillaine - there is no evidence that Matthew and Christopher are connected post migration, as you asked.  Matthew doesn't mention any brothers or sisters in his diary.  Christopher's descendants were not as extensive as Matthew's either - I believe only one male line continued on after the 4th generation.  That and the lack of a random descendant becoming historically significant like Ulysses has made Christopher's group much-less studied than Matthew's.

Answer 1

I do feel that Alice Turbeville is most probably part of a fake genealogy.

I looked up the source cited on the profile  as  "Geneaological Magazine, Vol. III December 1915 - September 1916 noting the birth of John to Julian and George " . I found that one article in the book describes the marriage of John Grant of Roxby, Yorkshire to Alice d of Mathew Turberville of Woolbridge to be part of a "fake pedigree" p 63,  https://archive.org/details/genealogicalmag191516bost/page/n135/mode/2up/search/grant

The author's reasons mirror my own first instincts.  What was a man from Yorkshire marrying doing marrying a Turbeville from Dorset. These were local gentry, mostly marrying within Dorset or the neighbouring counties. The article  focuses upon disproving the  the Yorkshire end and just mentions that Woolbridge was 'merely' an estate in East Stoke.

In fact the Turbervilles of Bere Regis were an ancient Dorset family and  did have a manor house at Woolbridge, It was built  or remodelled at about this time by Thomas Turbeville (d 1587) . Hardy used the thinly disguised name  and place (Wellbridge in the book)and possibly an existing legend associated with the family in his novel.I can definitely see the attraction of incorporating the Turbeville name into a pedigree !

The Turbeville pedigree in the  Visitation of Dorset 1623 sticks  to the descent of the main line which died out at Troilus. It  ignores the Woolbridge line which  became the main Turbeville line. There is no Matthew recorded in the visitation  https://archive.org/details/visitationofcound00stge/page/12/mode/2up/search/turbervile

The more extensive pedigree from Hutchins  includes Thomas Turbeville of Woolbridge, as the  3rd son of George Turbeville  and Audrey Matthew (this couple are on the visitation pedigree) Thomas had  several children, his 3rd son was a  Matthew, buried 1640. The pedigree below him uses a dotted line (so not considered to be definite) , however there is  no Alice. In any case his children were baptised in the 1630s so too late.

(John Hutchins ''The History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset '' Third edition, corrected, augmented, and improved by William Shipp and James Whitworth Hodson  1861-73 Vol 1 p 139)

Comments

Thanks Helen that's extremely helpful

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We have a profile for Matthew Turberville already. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Turberville-11   He had two living children at the time of his death in 1640:Grace and George.His  profile has good sources. You might like to compare him with the Geni profile which has him as the father of Alice. https://www.geni.com/people/Matthew-Turberville/6000000008542013932

Edit: just noticed that I spelt Turberville as Turbeville several times above. My error though it's often found as Tubervile

Answer 2

Looks like there are some source citations intermingled with his bio, which should be moved and cited properly.

And also, reading his bio, I see:

"!Another John Grant born 6 May 1573, Roxbury, York, England, married Alice Tuberville born about 1577 of Woodbridge, Dorset. His father was George Grant, mother Julian Claryonette or Clargenett. Modified 2 April 2015 by amonnier2742008 Note"

This is followed by what may be a source citation for the above.

Answer 3

England & Wales, Christening Index, 1530-1980

Name:	Mary Grant
Gender:	Female
Christening Date:	9 Oct 1715
Christening Place:	Chitterne, Wiltshire, England
Father:	John Grant
Mother:	Alice Grant
Search Photos:	Chitterne, Wiltshire, England
Household Members:	Name Age Alice Grant John Grant Mary Grant

Source Information:

Ancestry.com. England & Wales, Christening Index, 1530-1980 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2008.There was an ALICE married to a John Grant, but no evidence she was Alice Turberville

Answer 4

John and Alice are NOT proven as Matthew’s parents. It is a mistake made 100 years ago by genealogists that has become very stubborn to overcome. The same publication that first suggested the connection later retracted it.

Answer 5

Grant Family Genealogy Forum: Matthew Grant....No Connection?!

Posted by: Sandy, Date: August 08, 2000

I will pass this information on, as it was passed to me. From the"Search for the Passengers of The Mary and John" Vols 1 & 5. In 1914, the Grant Association presented an ancestry for Matthew Grant/Priscilla Grey, claiming Matthew was the son of John Grant & Alice Tuberville of Woodbridge. John Grant was allegedly born 6 May 1573, son of George Grant of Roxby, Yorkshire (300 miles north of Woodbridge) who married there Julian Clargennet. It was further claimed the father of Priscilla Grey was Reverand Anthoney Grey, Rector of Burbach, Leicestershire (150 miles north of Woodbridge) These ancestries were disputed in The Genealogical Magazine Vol. 3 (1915-1916), and Priscilla's ancestry was disproved in the New England Historical Society Record, 102:153.