Source Check: The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales [closed]

Question

I'm looking for help verifying the marriage of William Hardwicke and Elizabeth (Goushill) Wingfield. Richardson does not mention this marriage in "Magna Carta Ancestry" or "Royal Ancestry".  However, Marlyn Lewis' website includes this marriage and cites volume 2, page 450 of "The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales" by Gerald Paget. Does anyone have access to this book? I'd appreciate verification that the Paget book includes this marriage and, if it does, what was the souce Paget named? Thanks!!

Comments

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q2JCdz5bxO0C&pg=PA496&lpg=PA496&dq=elizabeth+goushill+hardwicke&source=bl&ots=mfAKx7bwMK&sig=ACfU3U1PWGLLbuH3h9ETAo2LSqpn0YxaHA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEx6CVtcjpAhUDOs0KHRi-DLgQ6AEwBHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=elizabeth%20goushill%20hardwicke&f=false

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https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=Goushill&id=mdp.39015011592485&view=1up&seq=11

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https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=Hardwicke&id=mdp.39015011592485&view=1up&seq=11

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when the libraries re-open ....

no digital copy online

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Manorial Records Guide - Derbyshire County Council

www.derbyshire.gov.uk › pdf › leisure › record-office

PDF

Henry II). In the reign of Elizabeth I the manor is said to have been granted to John Hardwick. ... married into the Goushill and Longford families. The Goushill ..

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Thanks for your answers, Eddie! I'm aware that the book isn't available online ... I was hoping someone had access to a hard copy and could check it for me. Interesting find in the Bess or Harwick book ... but I still have a hard time believing Elizabeth remarried at age 50+ and had a child/children ...

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she may not have been the mother of Roger but did marry William

heavy sigh - libraries still closed 

I did read the book BESS OF HARDWICK a year or so ago

dunno why Liz disconnected husband a couple years ago

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you do know that she's connected to Winston Churchill too

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The Churchills: In Love and War by Mary S. Lovell - Goodreads

www.goodreads.com › book › show

When you pick up a book of Winston Churchill, you sort of know what you are ... big names and famous families before (The Mitford Sisters, Bess of Hardwick and ... but Lovell spends time in the early chapters filling you in on his ancestors and ..

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I read this one too

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Liz disconnected Hardwick husband in October and I disconnected Hardwick son today because Richardson doesn't name the marriage and, so far, the only other source that they married is the Ancestry of Prince Charles and, now, Bess of Hardwick (which has no sources listed). More research is needed before they can be connected.

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No offense intended.

But when your library opens up, you can probably get about 2 dozen books - history and biography - about these peeps.

heavy sigh

I drove by my library yesterday about noon. All dark !  I swear I saw cobwebs in the windows. Big tarantula size cobwebs and moss and lichens growing on the books.

heavy sigh

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Put as answer, not comment

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You said you found this information on a website, and the source was a book... did you write to the lady whose website you saw? Marlyn (is that the correct spelling?) Lewis. Why not simply ask her? Maybe she can copy one page for you.

I think we are all related to Churchill. :0)

Poor Eddie King! I am doing the heavy sigh here. I use my Library app all the time, but there is nothing like going to the library and coming home with a pile of real books. I hope sincerely that someone gave your library a good cleaning :0)

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I've tried getting in touch with Marlyn before to clear up some errors, but he doesn't answer. I don't even know if he is still living.

btw, what's the connection to Bess of Hardwick? Are we talking this Bess?

“ELIZABETH HARDWICK (1527-February 13,1608)

Elizabeth Hardwick, better known as Bess of Hardwick, was the daughter of John Hardwick (1495-January 29, 1528) and Elizabeth Leake (1499-c.1570). She married four times, first to Robert Barlow (1529-December 24, 1544) in 1543, second to Sir William Cavendish (c.1505-October 25,1557) in 1547, third to Sir William St.Loe (1518-February 1565) in 1559, and fourth to George Talbot, earl of Shrewsbury (1528-November 18,1590) on February 9,1568. In January 1566, she was suggested as a bride for Sir John Thynne of Longleat, but he married someone else later that year. She had eight children, all born of her second marriage, Frances (June 18,1548-1632), Temperance (June 10,1549-1550), Henry (December 17,1550-1616), William (December 27,1551-1625), Charles (November 1553-1617), Elizabeth (March 31,1555-January 21,1582), Mary (January 1556-April 1632), and Lucrece (1557-1557). She is best known as the builder of Hardwick Hall in Derbyshire, but she had a long and eventful career at court, as well, and was for many years, with her fourth husband, responsible for keeping Mary, Queen of Scots prisoner in England. She raised her granddaughter, Arbella Stuart, who had a claim to the throne. She was also said to be the richest woman in England. This entry is short because there are several biographies available, the most recent Bess of Hardwick, Empire Builder by Mary S. Lovell. Others are by David Durant, Maud Stepney Rawson, and Ethel Carleton Williams; Oxford DNB entry under "Talbot [née Hardwick], Elizabeth." Portraits: three at Hardwick Hall, one c.1550-55, one c.1580, and one c.1590 and attributed to Rowland Lockey; British Library; effigy in Derby Cathedral.”

http://www.kateemersonhistoricals.com/TudorWomenH-He.htm

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 This family tree will help with the Battenberg dynasty via Prince Philip. 

http://www.wargs.com/royal/hauke.html

There is also a Hesse family Tree on the same website. 

Answer 1

Did you get an answer to this?  I have the book at home and can check...

Comments

Nobody ever ended up checking that source. I'd appreciate it if you could! Thanks Nigel!

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OK, here is what Paget says:

Generation Q116497 Roger Hardwick, son of William Hardwick, by Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Robert Goushill.  Roger died 1476, no birth date given.

There is no source listed for this.  I looked in the index, and Elizabeth is also listed in this record:

Generation Q98620 Elizabeth, daughter of Sir robert Wingfield of Letheringham. by Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham.  Elizabeth [Wingfield] diec 1491

Again, alas, no source.  It's on page 401 on Volume 2.  Paget was very meticulous about his sources, so I think it is trustworthy, but, of course, we would like to know the source he used.

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Thank you Nigel!

Answer 2

I had a bizarre dream that wikitreers were fighting over disconnecting me from my dad because I couldn't prove he was my dad. His name's not on my birth certificate. He and my mom were just friends with benefits from time to time. Anyhow, in my dream, I couldn't move. I hollered and hollered but no one would listen. Ergo, I intend to outlive wikitree. I figure I can go another 50 years

Comments

after I submitted DNA samples for me & my Dad, someone posted about how DNA kits to family members as Christmas gifts led to the parents' divorce - not all the kids were his. I look a LOT like my Dad, so I wasn't too worried, but I was relieved to get the results that our DNA showed a father-daughter relationship!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify

Motto for our age. (Russian, but made popular by Reagan in English.)

Answer 3

Visitation for what it's worth

https://archive.org/stream/genealogist07selb#page/141/

Does imply that the mystery lady was Roger's mother, but these things arent necessarily to be relied on.

Bess of Hardwick was an ancestor of the Lowe immigrants.  She's at RA vol 4 p 378. The line is taken back in 3 other directions, but is does look like the Goushill - Hardwick link is left out on purpose.

Comments

Thanks RJ! From what I gather, Burke's Peerage had Elizabeth's 1st husband (Wingfield) dying in 1431 and Elizabeth marrying Hardwick in c1432. However, Wingfield left a will dated 1452/3, which named his wife, Elizabeth. That will was proved Nov 1454. So, unless Elizabeth married and had a child when she was in her mid-50's, the Hardwick marriage probably didn't happen. I'm comfortable leaving the Hardwicks detached from Elizabeth's profile (there is a detailed research note on the possible 2nd marriage).

Also, the Visitation has William Hardwick marrying ____, daughter of ___ Goushill of Barleburgh, Derby. Elizabeth's father, Robert, appears to be from Nottinghamshire.

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If nitpicking over events from 1431 is all that's wrong with his tree, I dare say Chuck hasn't much to worry about. Most of us can't even trace a tree that far back with any reliability.

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Rob, My question has nothing to do with Prince Charles, it's about one of his ancestors documented in a recent book about "Chuck's" lineage. "Nitpicking" the validity of parent/child/spouse relationships on medieval profiles is VERY important as it effects literally millions of their descendants connections. Many of us try very hard to trace our trees that far back and accuracy on these profiles is our highest priority.