which brother married her?

+5 votes

There are 2 brothers named Jean Baptiste Riel in this family, one born in 1705 and the other in 1709, both baptisms found for them.  One of them married Louise Marguerite Frappier.

Tanguay has the one born in 1705 marrying her, but is missing the one born in 1709 from his list.  Jetté says it is the one born in 1709 who married her, and has both brothers listed.

Normally, a child did not get the same name as a sibling unless that sibling was already dead or unless the godparent of same gender was named the same  (seen one family with 3 sibs of same name due to this).  This last case does not apply to these boys, both godfathers have the name Pierre and not Jean Baptiste.

The funeral record for the husband of Louise Frappier is no help, the age given at death fits neither boy, in fact is large over-estimation by the priest, putting either one before even the marriage of parents.

The other brother is https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Riel-54  and has the wife attached.

He is currently listed as born in 1705.  I believe this to be an error and that the boy born in 1705 died young, and he should be listed as born in 1709.

Comments?  Input?

WikiTree profile: Jean Baptiste Riel
in Genealogy Help by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (276k points)

3 Answers

+3 votes
I would write up everything you just said, in long essay form, and place it above the biography under the heading == Disputed Wife (or Marriage) (or something like that) ==

Then I would detach the wife from the 1705 one and connect her to the 1709 one. That way, if any future research reveals more, it can still be easily fixed.

I agree that most likely the 1705 son died young. Hopefully a death record can be discovered for him at some point.
by Lucy Selvaggio-Diaz G2G6 Pilot (405k points)
Hi Lucy, the big problem is that records for the area are fragmentary at best, many are lost for various reasons.  Not likely to find such a funeral record now. Taking the easier method of just changing DOB for them and switching the sources for those.
+3 votes
Since the local custom was to give children in a family different names unless (a) the first child of a given name had died or (b) a godparent had that name, which was not the case here, then you should be safe in assuming the 1705 child died prior to 1709 and in switching the wife to the 1709 child.  

I'm assuming you've already tried discussing the change with the various PMs.  Barring a collective decision, my advice would be to add an explanation of the change to the notes you wrote about the evidence problem, then make the change.
by Susan Anderson G2G6 Mach 2 (24.3k points)
hi Susan, yes, did leave notes on both profiles and added comment so they would get a message about it, no response.

Will take the easier way out and change the DOB of both boys rather than transferring wife and kids.
Danielle, you might want to wait a week, just to make certain the PMs have a chance to see this discussion on their Family feeds.

Also, it would be good to have all the source references for your notes about this situation on both profiles when you've finished, and have links in the text so someone can flip back and forth between the two profiles.

source references for my note are already on there.  They are brothers so show on each other's profiles already.  I'll wait, no hurry, they're not going anywhere.  wink

+1 vote
The Individual PRDH #86977 for Antoine Riel Lirlande Delorme (son of Jean Baptiste Riel Lirlande and Marie Louise Coutu) gives his birthdate as 05 Mar 1709, baptismal date as 10 Mar 1709 (Contrecoeur) and burial date as 20 Sep 1780 (Lavaltrie). Antoine married Marie Anne Perrault on 12 Jan 1739 in St-Sulpice.
by Celeste Lamoureux G2G4 (4.7k points)
Hi Céleste, what do they say about Joseph born in 1708?  Per the data I have found, he is more likely the one who took the name Antoine and married Marie Anne Perrault..
Hi Danielle, I am not finding the Individual PRDH for Joseph yet but I did find his baptismal. record. It states that he was baptized 14 Mar 1708 and that he was born 28 Feb 1708. In the record it names him as Joseph but in the margin it looks like Joseph Louis. Also I keep looking at Jean Baptiste's (born 1709) baptismal record and the name (to me) looks like Jean Baptiste Antoine. I am still looking for Joseph's PRDH.
looking at the 1709 baptism, the name of the child is not there at all in text, it goes ''a été baptisé En (sic) fils du mariage de Jean Baptiste Riele et de Louise Cottu habitant de Lavaltrie'' goes on naming godparents, there is no line in the body of text saying what name they gave him.  The only place a name is given him is in margin, and it does read ''Jean Bap'' (next line) ''tiste le 10 Mar 1710''
Joseph Laine or Raine is what it looks like in margin, his father's name is also oddly written, as is the mother's for that matter (Coteuse, sic)

 The following line after 'fils du mariage de Jean Baptiste Riele et de Louise Cottu habitant de Lavaltrie' says 'qui est ne du cinqieme du mois du mars' and then is says something else which looks to me like it could be Jean Baptiste Antoine but I could be reading it wrong. Then it names the godparents which looks like Matthieu Prive and Marie Louise Margare?.  

I read it:

''né du cinqieme du mois de mars de la présente anée'' (sic) , ''le parein a été messire Piere de St  ours & la mareine Marie Louise Margane de Lavalterie le parein et la mareine ont signé avec moy le susdit jour et an __''  signatures: Le Chavallier de St ours Louise de Margane and the priest.
I definitely was reading that wrong. Thank you Danielle! I'm still looking for the PRDH for Joseph.
any luck on finding more on them Céleste?
I haven't had much luck fining anything on them Danielle. I did find 4 documents on Pistard BanQ that concern the Riels. #1 is an agreement between Marie Catherine Hauguenier, wife of Nicolas Riel and Marie Angelique Baillargeon, wife of Jean Baptiste Riel. #2 is the guardianship of the minor children of Jean Baptiste Riel and of Marie Louise Coutu (deceased). #3 is the guardianship of the minor children of Jean Baptiste Riel (deceased) and Marie Louise Frappier. #4 is the closing inventory of the estate of Jean Baptiste Riel (deceased) and Marie Louise Frappier.

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