Comments on Juliana (Vesci) Vernon

+2 votes
67 views

Is there any compelling source for this notional marriage between this Richard Vernon and this Juliana de Vescy? 

Problems: 

1) she's notionally born the same year her famous father dies. That does happen sometimes. Mostly when some GED editor is forcing dates to work. 

2) Their notional marriage ante-dates the birth of their notional children by multiple years. That doesn't happen in this era. 

3) She's notionally in her 40s when her only children are born. That doesn't happen in this era. 

4) There are no sources in the profile supporting any of the above. 

5) The profile bio blurb nambypambys around the obvious problems, and gives a prose warning (which is good). But what it really needs is either disconnection or sourcing. 

6) The origin of this claimed relationship and all its problematic details is the acrossthepond.ged which seems, in my limited experienced, to have spammed hundreds of similarly problematic profiles into WikiTree that are now malingering in slow motion. 

7) This has been an issue (like all the issues injected into the WikiTree database from that GED) for many years. 

What should be done?

Respectfully, 

Isaac in California

On 23 May 2020 Isaac Taylor wrote on Vesci-5:

The notional marriage between this Vescy and her putative husband Vernon is dated AFTER the birth of their children. And uncredibly late in her life. This has all the hallmarks of falsehood.

WikiTree profile: Juliana Vernon
in Genealogy Help by Isaac Taylor G2G5 (5.7k points)

Here is an 1899 summary of the Haddon/Vernon descent, by Carrington:

https://books.google.com/books?id=GjUNAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA146&ots=GndfpdLQX4&dq=William%20Vernon%20Margaret%20Stockport&pg=PA140#v=onepage&q=Stockport&f=false

Noted: Neither Juiliana de Vescy nor the sometimes-appearing Vipont marriage are mentioned here.

Noted, both here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Vernon_(died_1329)

Are we perhaps conflating like-named contemporaries from the Haddon Vernons and Shipbrooke Vernons? (I have no idea. No expertise in these Vernons.)

2 Answers

+3 votes
by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (520k points)
+3 votes
    Sir Richard de Vernon was the son of Sir Richard de Vernon and Juliana de Vesci.1 He married Matilda de Camville, daughter of William de Camville2nd Baron de Camville, on 24 June 1295.2 He died circa 3 February 1322/23.1

Children of Sir Richard de Vernon and Matilda de Camville

Citations

  1. [S62] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.: Genealogical Publishing Co, 2005), volume I, page 17. Hereinafter cited as Magna Carta Ancestry.
  2. [S37] BP2003 volume 3, page 3996. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [S37]
by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (520k points)
    Juliana de Vesci is the daughter of William de Vesci and Agnes Ferrers. She married Sir Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Franceys and Hawise de Vernon.1

Child of Juliana de Vesci and Sir Richard de Vernon

Citations

  1. [S62] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.: Genealogical Publishing Co, 2005), volume I, page 17. Hereinafter cited as Magna Carta Ancestry.

I see all of those too. But those aren't primary sources, or evidence. They're tertiary sources (lacking even references to artifacts, which is what reputsble secondary sources give); and while Richardson is good... what is the actual contemporary evidence he is relying upon? This isn't RichardsonTree, or ThePeerageTree... it's WikiTree. We need to synthesize, and correct the prior art. And defictionalize centuries of accidental and nefarious wrongnesses. 

Note also, the two sources you provided here contradict each other. One says that Juliana de Vesci married a certain Richard fitz Gilbert by his wife Hawise Vernon (and asserts Richard took his mother's name for... reasons); the other says the same Juliana de Vesci married a certain Richard Vernon, son of Richard Vernon by his wife Margaret Vipont.

Which is it? Both cannot be true. Mutually exclusive.

What is the ACTUAL primary source that proves either is right, or wrong?

See also John Atkinson saying *five* years ago, that this connection is likely fabricated:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/123413/dubious-parents-of-juliana-vescy-vernon

edited for clarity 

What "primary" source do you have that Edward was the son of Alfred the Great ?
His charters: Anglorum Saxonum Rex. He lived. He reigned. There's proof. His claim was peer-reviewed in his time. Violently.

These latter Normans documented everything. Because they fought over and/or inherited everything. If there isn't a primary source, it isn't history. We can count the exceptions of undocumented history amongst the inheriting nobility on our digits. Even then, there's scholarship and peer-reviewed deduction (a la Agatha) but this ain't that.

I'm pointing out our live-to-the-world published profiles include impossible claims. You appear to be supporting them with self-contradictory cut-and-paste of unsourced assertions by tertiary sources? That's not genealogy. No offense.

What charter?

What fact of inheritance or possession or naming pattern (even) supports the assertion this Juliana existed, let alone married this Richard?
I dunno

granted, for my PhD dissertation, I'm focused on the art produced during the Plantagenet reigns, but, I have read a lot to get the tiny morsels I need to associate the changes in art with the politics of the times and the noble families who fostered the artists.
OK now you have my undivided attention. Feel free to DM me if you want to nerd out on art history. I'll spare genpop.

read these when your library opens -very interesting

A Companion to Medieval Art: Romanesque and Gothic in Northern Europe

edited by Conrad Rudolph

Age of Chivalry: Art in Plantagenet England, 1200-1400 

I'm so happy for you two!
hi Miss Darlene

my primary occupation during the corona virus crisis is tormenting my fellows on wikitree

and reading all of Tom Clancy's novels, which I own

and then all of Robin Cook's which I also own

fortunately, as the corona virus crisis has locked up all the libraries, I own about 400 books

(don't tell anybody but one of my very favorite is VALLEY OF THE DOLLS - truth. Gots the movie too. )

Hi Eddie, always enjoy hearing from you!  I like Tom Clancy novels also!giggling

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