need help to determine correct LNAB for this man

+5 votes
252 views

Louis Dautrep or Énouille dit Lanoix came to New France as a soldier, the first trace we have of him is his marriage contract.  Unfortunately, he comes from Paris.

On his marriage contract summary he is listed as Louis Énouille, but on his actual marriage record he is listed as Louis Dautrepe, and signs it Louis Dautrep.  Later on, on baptisms of his children he signs Louis Énouille.   Images of both signatures on the profile.

Being as he's from Paris, things are complicated, Paris archives having gone up in smoke in 1870s.  The only possible place to find records on his family are notarial records.  I only know one source of such, which doesn't cover him.

His parents are named Guillaume Dautrepe and Marie Ledoux on his marriage, but with the shifting of his name back and forth, I am leery of creating his father without more data.

Anybody have a source or data to determine which is correct name for him and his father?  He is already in need of name correction, got entered wrong.

in Genealogy Help by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (412k points)

Would you accept as proof (original book, not Ancestry transcription record)

Dictionnaire généalogique des familles canadiennes depuis la ..., Volume 3

By Cyprien Tanguay

Thank you Eddie, the problem stems from the fact that he uses both names, Tanguay did not do any research in France, so doesn't really answer my question.  

Thanks James, Beauregard also leaves the question up in the air.

my apology

sorry

hug and smooch

heartkiss

no need to apologize Eddie, you tried to help, and I always appreciate that, even when it isn't quite what I asked.  Sometimes I am a bit terse in my comments, don't take it personally, juggling a gazillion things these days.  wink

2 Answers

+3 votes
by D Q G2G6 Mach 6 (69.1k points)
hmm, intéressant, un Sébastien Dautrep dont je ne déchiffres pas l'année du document qui signe, et un Philippe Dautrep en 1700.qui semble absent en Flandre.

Trouvez-vous le nom Enouille?
Non, je n'en ai pas d'exemple.

ENOUILLE me fait plus penser à un surnom dont une anagramme imparfaite pourrait être LANOIX, à moins que ce ne soit l'inverse. A cette époque, en patois, on disait le roé à la place du roi, le boé pour le bois.

hmm, sauf qu'on l'appelle Éouille dit Lanoix sur plein de documents, ou Dautrep dit Lanoix.  Je vais aller avec Dautrep, à moins qu'on trouve quelque chose pour son père Guillaume qui indique le contraire.

Le roé, le boé, bon, mdr, toé alors.  Prononciations qui ont survécu ici pendant longtemps.  Qu'on trouve toujours en fait.  laugh

En Guadeloupe au 18e siècle, j'ai des NO(E)LBEL dont le nom vient de la famille LEBLOND.

Mon sentiment est qu'Enouille est dérivé de Lanoix

ENOUIL(LE) => LE NOUI

le nom se transforme plus tard en Lanouet.  laugh  Ce qu'on voit dans les changements de noms ici est vraiment en continu, même si des trucs comme PRDH ''standardisent''.  

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rio_0995-872x_1948_num_2_3_1066

4. Végétaux. Si les noms d’animaux sont absents, à la grande différence des sobriquets actuels (une seule exception : L' Hirondelle),
SURNOMS MILITAIRES EN FRANCE AU XVIIIe SIECLE 241
ceux de végétaux, au contraire, sont fort répandus et fournissent quel¬
ques-uns des plus célèbres et des plus constants. Chaque compagnie, à peu près, a La Fleur, La Giroflée, La Rose, La Tulipe, Fleur d’ Epine. Ces surnoms sont tirés des végétaux en général : Bel Arbre, Belle
Branche, La Plante, U Epine, des fleurs : La Fleur, Belle Fleur ou Belfleur, Fleur d’ Epine, La Giroflée ou La Géroflée, Jasmin, La Rose, Belle Rose, Beaurozier et Deroziers, La Tulipe, La Violette, des fruits : L'Orange et L'Oranger, La Noix, des arbustes : Delaurier et Deslau¬ riers (probablement avec un sens guerrier), des céréales : L’Epi d' Or, et enfin des légumes : La Laitue. Il est évident que ces surnoms sont des allusions à des traits physiques et moraux, sauf peut-être pour quelques surnoms obligatoires et donnés arbitrairement et sauf pour des jeux de mots comme ceux que j’ai cités. Un L’Orange est en fait un surnom d’origine

laugh et il y en a d'autres comme la gachette, prêt à boire, bois l'eau qui devaient réfléter un trait particulier de ces hommes;  la gachette est devenu par la suite Lagacé, nom répandu ici, bois l'eau devenu Boileau, prêt à boire par contre n'a pas trouvé de suite. sad

+2 votes

https://acadian.org/namevar.html#D  this takes a while to load and you need to scroll down to see the text.  But it is a dissertation on why surnames changed sometimes in Canada.  It is worth a read.   There are some grids that show the morphing of some names.   

Your names are on this grid which is not one of the grids on the above site but is using the same logic.  https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~afgs/E2dit-etc.html   read its intro and explanations here   https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~afgs/index1.html

These Names were compiled from a large number of sources. We have included a few of the sources to help identify the areas the names came from..
(1) Are names listed in the book "French-Canadian Names: Vermont Variants - by Véronique Gassette" published by the "Vermont Historical Society" Montpelier, VT.

               EnouilIe              Dautrêpe                                         

               Enouille               Dautrepe                                         

               Enouille               Laniox                               

               Enouille               Lanoie                               

(1)          Enouille              Lanoix                                

(1)          Enouille              Lenway

by Laura Bozzay G2G6 Pilot (682k points)
thanks Laura, was already familiar with the mechanisms for these, the Acadian one has a very nice compilation there.  Just trying to determine the right name for my ancestor.  Paris archives going up in smoke puts a large bug in research there.

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=+Dautrepe+++++&submit=Valider&client=cdip  says it is not found  got same result for Enouille and Enouile  Actually I checked each of the names as shown above and none of them worked on this French website

https://forebears.io/surnames?q=+EnouilIe++  comes back as Nouaille with the highest prevalence and density in France of 63% with one L spelling it came back at 70%

Dautrêpe  came back as a 67% match and is spelled with 2 P without the accent it is a 89% match with 2 P

The surname find for France now using the possible correct names...  

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Nouaille&x=0&y=0  for Eouille or Eouile  Nouaille has a larger presence in Paris than Dautreppe.  

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Dautr%EAppe&x=0&y=0  Dautreppe has a presence in Paris.  with and without the accent.  

While the dates for that mapping tool are later than your dates, it does give some measure of possibility that name was there in the time period you care about.   You can try then researching backward and see if the name was there when the records pick up after the fire.  and if there is anything from before the fire.  

Another thought.  If they were in the military those records were not kept in the same location as birth, marriage, and death records.   You can try checking for the ancient regime records.   Here is the contact for those :

Centre des Archives du personnel Militaire

Caserne BERNADOTTE

Place de Verdun

64 023 PAU Cedex

Tél : 05 59 40 46 92

Fax : 05 59 40 45 53

Site : http://www.defense.gouv.fr

Courriel capm-pau.courrier.fct@intradef.gouv.fr 

hmm, the first one in this set gives birth dates between 1891 and more modern times.  The second is My Heritage, and the brief look tells me they are dealing with descendants of my man.  cheeky

3rd one is between 1891-1915, 4th is no earlier than 1798, reconsitutions of families.  My man was born around 1686.

The Paris archives burned in 1871.  Which is why I was asking about notarial records, which were not in the same location.

Good notion on military records, although I don't think they have lots of data on the enlisted men of the era, I know Admiralty records retain lots of data on ships, but they are needle in haystack for finding one particular man's presence on unknown ship.  If it was even recorded, officers would get named on rosters, enlisted men, not as much.

The thing about marine companies of the era is that recruitment of the soldiers was not done in any central manner, often it was the captains who went and recruited men to their companies.
A lot of my French family are still living in the same place as our ancestors 4 or 5 centuries ago.  So it is not without possibility that the ones there in the 1800s were connected to some in the 1600s...

But as you can see from the maps generated that surname was pretty widely spread.  

I know to access military records for what they call the Ancient Regime which is pre Revolution, you have to know the town the person came from.  So if you are sure it was Paris you will be able to find out if they are in the records or not.  

The guy I am after we have no idea where he was from and all the places we check the records start a lot later.... sigh...  but I try to leave no stone unturned when researching.
which guy is that?

I may have another point of access to military records for the era of my guy, but would have to get a membership to access their data fully.  With no certainty that there even exists a record.

The problem with the military records is that they don't tell me anything about what his father's actual name was.

I have seen instances where a particular name found in an area in 17th century disappeared from there, either died out or moved.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1045807/burgoon-burgun-bourgon-mystery-we-need-your-help  Jacob the immigrant in mid 1700s shows up in Maryland.   He is my guy... 

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126 views asked Jan 23, 2020 in Genealogy Help by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (412k points)

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