Request help determining the father of Felix Ernst [closed]

+2 votes
91 views

On 1 Jun 2018 Cheryl (Timko) Collette wrote on Ernst-192:

How could Ulrich be the father of Felix when Ulrich died in 1699 and Felix wasn't born until 1704?

WikiTree profile: Felix Ernst
closed with the note: Dallace Moore found the source that explained father's erroneous date of death
in Genealogy Help by Janne Gorman G2G6 Mach 2 (29.9k points)
closed by Janne Gorman
Yes, a really good question

Did someone use for instance a baptismal date as a DOB got Felix?

Did someone use the date that Ulrich drew up his last will and testament as the DOD for Ulrich BUT he actually lived until 1705?

I've seen both of these done which led to confusion, so just asking if this is possible in this case
The original question was posed by Cheryl Collette, and I brought it to G2G because I cannot read the documents that are written about this family in Swiss.

You may be on the right tract, Susan.  I compared the two Ulrich Ernst.  Their WikiTree profiles indicate that the younger was born the same year that the elder Ulrich died.  There may be even another missing generation.

3 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer
by Dallace Moore G2G6 Mach 8 (87.8k points)
selected by Janne Gorman
YES!!!  I can correct the date of death for Ulrich (and add a source for his profile, which has absolutely none)

This explains a lot, since the date of his marriage to Judith Fischer has been used for his date of death.  (I know that they say when you marry, it is "your funeral" but this is taking it too literally.)

Thank you for hunting down something that makes some sense and is a language that I can read.  jan
You are very welcome Janne. I am happy that I could help you and that it is something you can use.
+1 vote
Could it be possible that they have the 2 Ulrich's mixed up. The father is the brother of Felix and the brother is suppose to be the father.
by Dallace Moore G2G6 Mach 8 (87.8k points)
Dallace, I am pretty well lost on how to proceed with this family.  Both Ulrich Ernst had links to FamilySearch.org, however the sources on that website have been removed with instructions to remove any links to the previously existing page.
Could you maybe re-find the sources on Familysearch.org? Or are the microfilms still available?

The churchbooks from the old city of Zurich are now online (https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pfarrbuecher), but only of the city not of the rest of Canton Zurich.

Again, thank you for your help.  I do not, however, see any translation tab at https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pfarrbuecher

That's because there is no translation tab :-D.

You can translate the whole website with Google https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stadt-zuerich.ch%2Fpfarrbuecher
or copy the text to deepl.com, which has better translations than Google.
+2 votes

I would try to find

Schobinger, Viktor et al: Zürcher Familiennamen. Enstehung, Verbreitung und Bedeutung, Zürich: Zürcher Kantonalbank, 1994. 192 p.

in a library. He finds the first person with the family name Heini Ernst 1416 in Dättlikon and his source material might help you making the connection.

by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (541k points)

Thank you, Helmut.  I found a copy of the book on Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/Zurcher-Familiennamen-1994-Surnames/dp/B013168B64. Have you used this source before?  I think it may be too general.  Here is the description: It is estimated that there are now over 15,000 family names in the Canton of Zurich. Editing such a number would have exceeded the strength of the authors. The list is therefore limited to the names of genders who were citizens of a municipality in our canton before 1800. This resulted in a number of "only" around 1,200 names that had to be mastered within a useful period of time. So we didn't want to question the "turicensity" of the later naturalized genders, but to limit the work to a reasonable level. In addition, the interpretation of the increasing number of non-cantonal and foreign-language names since the 19th century would have led to extensive research outside the canton.

Viktor Schobinger, Zurich, collected the documents from the source works. As a historian and linguist, Dr. phil. Hans Kläui, Winterthur, critically reviewed the introduction and explanations of the dictionary and attached his own notes. After his death, Dr. phil. Alfred Egli, Küsnacht, the linguistic explanation of the names, while Werner Debrunner, Erlenbach, and Hans Schulthess, Wallisellen, looked through the entries from a genealogical point of view. We were able to gather innumerable marriage documents from the collection of Hans Schulthess saved on diskettes. The Zurich State Archives gave unhindered access to the numerous archives. Many thanks to all of you. We have limited the sources to the printed ones and here to the most important ones;original sources were rarely used, but countless family stories were used.)

It is interesting that the sources that Viktor used were from the collection of Hans Schulthess.  My ancestral name is 
Schultheis

I did not think the book would answer your questions, just that it could provide additional sources that might turn out to be useful.

I would also contact the Zivilstandsamt der Stadt Winterthur to ask for available Dättlikon records.

I also don't think, the book itself could be of much use. At my local library, the book is labeled as a dictionary. But I will have a look at it, so you wouldn't have to buy it.

For church records, the Zurich State Archives would be the correct archive. Sadly, there are no records online, but maybe there are microfilms available.

Thank you.  Our libraries have been closed since March because of Coronovirus.  Even when they partially re-open, people are not going to be allowed to go inside.  They are going to have "touchless" checkout, where you order the books online and make an appointment to pick them up.  But, reference books cannot be checked out.
In my country, a lot of libraries are now open again, so I could acess the book.
As I suspected, it is not of much help. There's a short entry for every Zurich family name, without any sources. Just at the end of the book, there is one page with sources, mainly books. The sources in the book seem only to contain original sources before 1500. So I don't think they will be of any help if you are stuck around 1700.

But at least the introduction of the book now gives us a clue: on each familyname, there are the nowaday "Heimatorte" (swiss hometown, which is not necessarily the birthtown or place of residence), the earliest mentioned people of that name and the meaning of the name.

So what happened here, is the autor of the book just listed some random early mentioned people with the family name, in this case "Heini Ernst 1416 Dättlikon" and "Heiny Ernst 1463 Dättlikon" and others from other towns.
It doesn't mean that this Heini and Heiny are related or related to other Ernst from Dättlikon (as he states in the introduction). It could be, but not necessarily.
So there are just the early mentioned people, but there's no family tree behind it at all.

:-(

I am glad your libraries are open.  We cannot browse books in the stacks, but can order some books, but of course, not reference books.

I truly appreciate the fact that you took the time to research this possible source for me, and saved me buying it on Amazon.  You are so generous a genealogist!

You're welcome, I'm happy that I could help and that you didn't had to buy the book.

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