need help to sort out purported parents for this woman

+4 votes
137 views
Jeanne Aunois (or variations thereof) is currently set with parents Pierre Auneau and Anne Cloutier.

There is no marriage record nor contract surviving to name her parents.

The supposed father is listed as born in Alsace, Lorraine around 1593;  the supposed mother is listed as born in Mortagne (in Perche), and has parents named for her.

Anne Cloutier's father is listed as Raoullin Cloutier and is linked to a Nicolas Cloutier, who with his wife is made into the father of not only this Raoullin Cloutier but also to René Cloustier, father of the line of Zacharie Cloustier.

None of this lineage has sources.  Zacharie Cloustier's parents are known, but have not found anywhere that names grandparents for him.

Can my friends in French Roots take a look please?  Looks like there is need of removal of some of these, want second opinion.
WikiTree profile: Jeanne Aunois
in Genealogy Help by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (325k points)

2 Answers

+3 votes

not sure how much these docs will help from BAnQ

Requête de Jeanne Aunos (Auneau), veuve de feu Pierre Lefebvre, demeurant à Trois-Rivières, demanderesse Patrimoine québécois

Nouvelle-France. Juridiction royale des Trois-Rivières. 1 juin 1693

Fonds Juridiction royale des Trois-Rivières

Archives textuelles

http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/3388982?docsearchtext=Auneau

Requête d'appel de Jean Vinçonneau (Vinsonneau) dit Laforest, demandeur, à l'encontre de Jeanne Auneau (Aunos), veuve du défunt maître Pierre Lefebvre, contre la sentence donnée par le sieur de Saint-Quentin au bénéfice de ladite défenderesse. Ledit demandeur réclame, selon son mémoire, la somme de 138 livres, 3 sols et 2 mesures de blé. Ladite somme lui est accordée car ladite Auneau (Aunos) refuse de comparaître pour répondre à ses prétentions

Patrimoine québécois

Nouvelle-France. Juridiction royale des Trois-Rivières. 22 novembre 1669

Fonds Juridiction royale des Trois-Rivières

http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/3387543?docsearchtext=Auneau

http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/3387539?docsearchtext=Auneau

here is main link i just tried it in another address bar shoulc work for you, there is a few more that I can see = http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/rechercheExterne/encoded/QXVuZWF1/false/P/desc/W10=/Toutes%20les%20ressources/true/false/

by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Mach 8 (89.7k points)
edited by Arora Anonymous
thanks Arora, good documentation for her but not related to her supposed parents.
+2 votes

PRDH Individu #44772 record for Jeanne Auneau : Immigrant, * & b. ~1624 somewhere in France, d. & s. 1697-02-11 at Trois-Rivières, m. < 1647 somewhere in Québec with Pierre Lefebvre, son of Pierre & Jeanne Culiloup. Ind. #44772 record notes that contrary to rumours to that effect, there is no reason to believe that Jeanne Auneau is Amerindian. There is no mention of Jeanne Auneau's parent in the record.

Such absence of immigrant's known parents is completely consistent with rumours of Amerindian origins since similar rumour claims exist for several other woman who immigrated to New France and whose parents are not known..

Regarding Jeanne Auneau's marriage, Pierre Lefebvre By Thomas J. Laforest says : "Neither the civil nor marriage record have been recovered. However, a contract recorded by Severin Ameau, dated 2 September 1663, indicates that our ancestor was a native of Sceaux and that his father was also named Pierre."

See also Kathleen Juneau Roy's Il était une fois, Gentilly - Pierre Lefebvre, which is excellent including in terms of saying that though several genealogists believe Jeanne Auneau to have Amerindian origins no proof exists supporting such claims. Note however that Juneau Roy seems to stumble in the article's first 2 paragraphs about Pierre Lefebvre being born in Mortagne instead of in Sceaux. 

Edit2&3: Typo & grammar

by
edited

thanks cousin, I know where the idea that she was native stems from, she was godmother of a child in Trois-Rivières in 1651, the child being native, mother named, but some people have believed this indicated Jeanne herself was native, which it just doesn't do.

Any idea where Raoullin Cloutier and Nicolas Cloutier stem from?  Supposedly brother and father of René Cloustier, father of Zacharie Cloustier who came here.  No sources for them at all other than some tree or other.

The closest I can come to is Wikipedia's Zacharie Cloutier article, which lamely uses "Most genealogists agree that Zacharie Cloutier was the grandson of Nicolas Cloutier of Perche." sentence that ends by 'citation needed'. Not very convincing.

no kidding, who are ''most genealogists''?  laugh

I beg your pardon. I should know better. In any case, upon closer inspection there are 13 instances of the name Raoulin in Raoul Clouthier's Les CLOUTIER de Mortagne-au-Perche en France et leurs descendants au Canada leaving little doubt that Raoulin & Denis Cloutier were brothers. For example:

  • « Denis Cloustier avait un frère nommé Raoulin ou Raoul, qui habitait la paroisse de Loizé et qui, lui aussi, était cordier de son métier. Il avait épousé Martine Laigneau, qui donna naissance à plusieurs enfants. Malheureusement, Raoulin eut une fin tragique et prématurée; il fut lâchement assassiné en 1619 »
  • About Denis Cloustier's son Denis - « Denis - il fut baptisé le 29 février 1612. Il eut deux parrains, comme cela semblait souvent se faire à l'époque: ce furent Estienne Rousserie et Raoulin Cloustier, oncle de l'enfant; la marraine fut Jeanne Creste, épouse de Jean Deschamps. Cet enfant ne vécut que quelques jours, son inhumation ayant eu lieu le 3 mars 1612. »
  • About Raoulin Cloustier's assassination : « Assassinat de Raoul ou Raoulin Cloustier Maintenant que grâce aux fructueuses recherches de Madame Montagne nous connaissons les noms des père et mère de Zacharie, ainsi que ceux de ses frères et soeurs, il semble qu'il serait encore intéressant, pour les généalogistes qui étudient et scrutent l'histoire des premiers colons du Canada, de prendre connaissance d'un autre très vieux document que nous devons aussi à la patience et à la perspicacité de Madame Montagne. Il concerne cet oncle de Zacharie, le Raoul ou Raoulin Cloustier, frère de Denis, qui mourut assassiné, probablement au début de l'année 1619 et à Mortagne. »
  • Etc.
Raoul Clouthier's Les Cloutier de Mortagne does not however provide details of the father's name and origins.
so, we have a brother for René, at least now we have something about that.  And Raoulin's wife's name agrees with what we have.

Now, does he say any more about Raoulin's children?  Right now he is showing a daughter, Anne, who supposedly married a man named Pierre Auneau.  Only this Pierre is shown as being born in Alsace, Lorraine.  Not at all near Perche.

All Raoul Clouthier says : « Denis Cloustier avait un frère nommé Raoulin ou Raoul, qui habitait la paroisse de Loizé et qui, lui aussi, était cordier de son métier. Il avait épousé Martine Laigneau, qui donna naissance à plusieurs enfants.»

There are a lot of trees on the web that provide clues with a certain degree of agreement to much of what WikiTree traces for Raoulin Cloustier and his daughter Anne.

To be more confident than such trees, one would have to somehow get access to such specialized libraries sources as the city of Mortagne-au-Perche Mediatèque's Congrès de généalogistes 6&7-10-1973 .... Les Parents de Zacharie Cloutier ; Généalogie Cloutier ... . or related works authored by M. Pierre & Mme Françoise Montagne available online via Amis du Perche's as Cahiers Percheron documents. Which likely entails cost issues ...

Pending firm resolution of Jeanne Auneau's ascendance, I would simply go with PRDH view that her parents' name and origins are unknown.

the link as you wrote it leads nowhere.  I found the site for Amis du Perche but as you say, it entails costs, with no certainty that the document would contain an answer.

As far as the trees that agree on Raoulin's daughter Anne, I don't know how often I have seen trees do copy-paste from one to the other, with no sources cited.  I know Jetté also has her as of unknown origin.

Jean-François Loiseau who created and has long maintained the perche-quebec.com website also keeps an associated geneanet.com tree to keep track of Percheron immigrants and related celebrities' relationships. As a matter of interest given his credentials here is link of descendancy of Nicolas Cloutier through Denis, Zacharie, Zacharie and so on but not showing Denis' brother Raoulin ...

There is a saying that nature abhors a vacuum. The genealogical analogy might be said to be that genealogy abhors unkown parents. No wonder these rumours abound that need to be disproven when parents of immigrants are not known. 

Like I say pending firm resolution of Jeanne Auneau's ascendancy I would suggest simply disconnecting her parents for now.

interesting, he has Nicolas but no wife for him, whoever uploaded Nicolas on WikiTree has his wife being a Brière also.  hmmm.

Have disconnected Jeanne and left a note on all profiles as to why.  Thanks for the data.

Deborah Clouthier's 2015 comment on Nicolas's profile points out probably correctly : " I think but not sure that Marie Anne Briere was Denis's wife Renee Briere's mother."

not likely, Renée Brière is listed with a father Denis Brière, not very likely that his wife would also have been a Brière, although not impossible.  There are simply no sources provided.  sad

I agree. I took her comment to mean that 2 Brières for father and son was unlikely.

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