French to English translation help needed, please (handwritten record).

Question

Document is here : https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PW4-N43

The entry of interest is the one for Juliette Annette Mielet, 19 October, second from the bottom of the page.  I think I made out something about England (?),but am not sure.  (There are few days I regret going to tech school, instead of the high school where I would have had to learn French, but this is one of them.)

What I'm looking for is some verification that the parents are English, that "Mielet" is the French version of Millet (or maybe it's the other way around) - or if this is in no way related to my search.  My research subject (Ida Sarah) was born in England, to a French father, so it is possible she and her husband were visiting relatives at the time of the baptism.

There is not, yet, a profile for this family, as I am still gathering information - and determining if this record actually belongs to the couple I am researching is the next step.

Thanks!

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Editing to add the new profile's ID#.  (Please be kind with any criticisms/suggestions for improvement.)

Comments

I don't find Alfred's birth or his parents' marriage in Dornecy, maybe they moved there after his birth. But I found their death records there:

Jean-Baptiste Millet died on 7 Jan 1867 (Dornecy, registres d'état-civil NMD 1854-1873, 1867, acte n° 1, Archives départementales de la Nièvre, 5 Mi 14 650, images 669-670/1046). He was 69.5 and born in Saint-Brice, Seine-et-Oise (so in 1797, or rather an V of the republican calendar) to Louis Augustin Millet and Victoire Bonnet.

Claudine Dufour died on 29 Jan 1869 (Dornecy, registres d'état-civil NMD 1854-1873, 1869, acte n° 3, Archives départementales de la Nièvre, 5 Mi 14 650, images 684/1046). She was 70 and born in Dornecy (in 1798, an VI or an VII) to Jean-Baptiste Dufour and Jeanne Roubeaux.

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or rather an V of the republican calendar

Sorry, but I have no idea what that means. 

I have found some images for a Claudine Dufour on familysearch, but they give her husband Jean-Baptiste's last name as Grillet.  Because I cannot read French, I have no way to tell if that was what was written, or if it is how it was transcribed - or if it is even the parents of Alfred Charles.  (One seems to be a baptism of Ann "Grillet", and two seem to be for a marriage of Ann "Grillet" to Charles Derain.)

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

 

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Rubén - Thanks to you finding that first marriage and the 1861 census, I tracked Alfred Charles down for 1851.  He was living at the school run by his first wife's father.  (He was the French Master.)  Going by his given age at the time (20), he made out he was older than he actually was, and in 1861 claimed he was younger than he actually was (he "aged" just 5 years in the decade between each census.  If there is anything anyone has that should be added, his profile is here.

Again and again and again -- thank you SO MUCH to everyone who assisted in all the different aspects of this.  I could not have done it without you all. 

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Melanie,

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"or rather an V of the republican calendar"

Sorry, but I have no idea what that means. 

Between 1793 and 1805, France used a totally different calendar, called "calendrier républicain". Roman numerals are often used for years, so "an V" is the fifth year of the French republic, from 22 Sep 1796 to 21 Sep 1797.

Indeed, the birth record of Claudine Dufour (Dornecy, registres d'état-civil NMD 1793-1825, an VII, acte n° 21, Archives départementales de la Nièvre, 5 Mi 14 648, images 75-76/927) states that she was born in Dornecy "Le [six] ventôse l'an sept de la République une et indivisible", which means 24 Feb 1799. Her parents are Jean-Baptiste du Four and Jeanne Roubeaux, matching Claudine's death record.

Jean-Baptiste du Four was a baker. His name, which is spelled like this in two words in the record (but he signs "dufour"), is descriptive of his trade, as it means "of the oven". At the time family names had been fixed for a long time already, but maybe his ancestors had been bakers for generations and thus earned their name.

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I have found some images for a Claudine Dufour on familysearch, but they give her husband Jean-Baptiste's last name as Grillet.  Because I cannot read French, I have no way to tell if that was what was written, or if it is how it was transcribed - or if it is even the parents of Alfred Charles.  (One seems to be a baptism of Ann "Grillet", and two seem to be for a marriage of Ann "Grillet" to Charles Derain.)

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

These images are for three sisters all named Anne Grillet (in some areas it was not uncommon to have several children living at the same time with the same given name).

Image 1 records the death, on 31 Oct 1822, of one Anne aged 16 month, so born in June 1821.

Image 2 records the marriage, on 12 Jan 1843, of another Anne born 2 Jun 1817.

Image 3 records the birth on 16 Apr 1819 of yet another Anne.

They are not related to Alfred Charles: different name, different place (Buxy is 150 km from Dornecy), earlier dates (the father died before 1843 while Alfred Charles' father was living in 1864). The mother is a different Claudine Dufour, this is not a rare name.

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Between 1793 and 1805, France used a totally different calendar, called "calendrier républicain". Roman numerals are often used for years, so "an V" is the fifth year of the French republic, from 22 Sep 1796 to 21 Sep 1797.

commented by Julien Cassaigne

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Ahh, thank you.  That makes sense.  (It's similar to the naming for the year of the English king's reign I have occasionally seen.  (I don't usually work far enough back where it was commonly used.))

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They are not related to Alfred Charles: different name, different place (Buxy is 150 km from Dornecy), earlier dates (the father died before 1843 while Alfred Charles' father was living in 1864). The mother is a different Claudine Dufour, this is not a rare name.

commented by Julien Cassaigne

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Again, thank you.  That is exactly the information I needed.  (And, yes, I have run across same-name siblings where the older have died, and also same-name siblings all living at the same time.  Although not always clear by "official" records, they mostly had family use-names, or pet names, or (gasp, the horror!*) "middle" names that they used daily.)

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* I have developed a dislike of the terms "first name" and "middle name", much preferring the (usually Scottish) term "forename/s", as that covers all the forenames when a person had more than one, and more than "a first and a second".  Indeed, my mother frequently referred to me by both forenames — especially if I was in trouble!  

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And here is the birth record of Jean-Baptiste Millet: Saint-Brice-sous-Forêt, registres d'état-civil NMD an V - an VIII, Archives départementales du Val-d'Oise, 3 E 148 12, images 15-16/123. He was born on 10 thermidor an V (28 juillet 1797) in Saint-Brice, Seine-et-Oise (now known as Saint-Brice-sous-Forêt, Val-d'Oise, about 20 km north of Paris). His father Louis Augustin Millet was a wine merchant, born about 1767 in Gournay-sur-Aronde (60 km further north). His mother Victoire Bonet was born around 1757 in Paris.

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Jean-Baptiste Millet and Claudine Dufour married on 12 Nov 1825 in Saint-Germain-des-Prés, Paris. The original record was destroyed during the 1871 fire, and later reconstructed: Paris, état-civil reconstitué, M sept.-15 déc. 1825, Archives de Paris, série V2E; Genealogical Society of Utah, film 1147477, image 1647/2353.

They lived at the time 6 rue Taranne (an old street that was later absorbed by boulevard Saint-Germain). Jean-Baptiste was a domestic servant. His parents are Augustin Millet and Victoire Bonet (or Bouet ?). Claudine Dufour's parents are Jean-Baptiste Dufour and Jeanne Roubeau.

I still have not found the birth of Alfred Charles.

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Thank you again and again and again, Julien.  I am learning so more about France than I ever expected to.  This is like Christmas and birthdays all in one! 

Answer 1

Rough Translation I could not make out all of the Letters:

(No 716 (1032))

(Juliette Annettte, nee le 9  Septembre 1872, fille de Alfred Charles Mielete A de Idah. Sarah Courier, son espouse, demeurant au d’ Angourlime du Cemfile 27, baptis ie Le 19 th ie 1873, Parleministere de gb,, de vernejoul, enremplacement de ms decojipet, pastor de l eglisereformee de paris elle a eu pour jarrain. Victor dusailland espous marrianne Annette Bernace

No 716 (1032)

Juliette Annettte, born on 9 September 1872, daughter of Alfred Charles Mielete and of Idah. Sarah Courier, his wife, residing at Angourlime at Cemfile 27, baptized 19th oct in 1873, Speaks of the ministry of gb? ,, of vernejoul, replacement of ms decojipet, pastor of the reformed church of paris she had as a godfather. Victor dusailland spouse of marrianne Annette Bernace

 

Comments

Is it née le 9 Septembre?  Meaning born the 9th September 1872.

Baptised le 19 Octobre 1873?

fille de Alfred Charles Mielete et de Idah Sarah Tourier.

(I really wish I spoke French. )

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Yep I was staring at it for Awhile the 9's looked like g's at first but you are correct and it makes much more sense now.

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I have seen English records where their 9s look like gs (there is a reason that leet uses 9 as g) - so, while I may not understand everything of what I am reading, I do recognise some elements simply because of the similarity to things I have read before.

What I thought might have been a mention of England you have as a place of residence (thanks for that).  Oh, is my face ever red over that one!    (At least I said I don't speak/read French.) 

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Yes it could be Sarah Tourier instead of Courier also.

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The residence (i.e., the phrase after "demeurant") I believe is rue d'Angoulême du Temple 27; this street is now called rue Jean-Pierre-Timbaud and is located in the 11th arrondisement of Paris (see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rue_Jean-Pierre-Timbaud, which I realize is in French, but translates fairly well in translate.google.com)

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Also the speaks of minister part is actually by the minister of but I cannot make out the initials of the place GB?,, of Vernejoule Would this record be from france or is there a vernejoule british columbia per chance?

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Very good i Agree about the street and name of it.

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Par le ministere de gb,, de vernejoul, enremplacement de ms decojipet

I think this means the minister of GB?? instead of minister Decojipet

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I believe the phrase after "1873" says that the baptism through the ministrations of H. de Vernejoul, standing in for Mr. Decoppet, minister of the Reformed Church of Paris (note that the same guy was standing in for the previous baptism as well). In the final phrase, it is parrain [godfather] Victor Dusailland and marrain [godmother] Annette Bernace

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Yes I agree with that interpretation as well for the ministers. and the god parents

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ha its an H i thought it was GB my bad I was looking too hard! I could not make sense of what it was trying to say!

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I do believe we have it cracked though!

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They did love to add some curves to thier lettering in those days for sure!

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So I believe we have determined that the correct translation is :

No 716 (1032)

Juliette Annettte, born September 1872, daughter of Alfred Charles Mielete and of Ida Sarah Tourier, his wife, residing at Angourlime at Cemfile 27, baptized the 19^th of oct 1873, By Minister H. De Vernejoul, standing in for  Minister Decoppet,, pastor of the reformed church of paris she had as a Godfather Victor dusailland and Godmother Marraine Annette Bernace

 

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"residing rue d'Angoulême du Temple 27" - but otherwise, yes.

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Thank you both so much!

Nothing there, though, determines if it should be Millet (as the English records have the last name), or Mielete as in this French record --- although I am leaning towards Mielete, as Alfred Charles was born in Paris (about 1834-ish). I have no idea who his parents were, though.

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If you go on to the record on the following page baptism 719, You can see pastor H. de Vernjoul spelled out as Henri de Vernjoul.

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Oooooh, I didn't think to check a different page for the Pastor's name (I was too focussed on the child).  Thanks for that, Mark!