Why is Von_Sachsen-126 not connected to her father Wettin-104?

+1 vote
67 views
There are unconnected direct ancestors but I do not have access to connect them.  They are Margarete von Sachsen [Von_Sachsen-126], who is not connected to her father, Johann, "The Consistent", Elector of Saxony [Wettin-104] who is not connected to her mother/his wife, Margarete von Anhalt-Zerbst [Anhalt-Zerbst-10].  In addition, the given name of [Anhalt-Zerbst-10]’s  paternal grandfather [Anhalt-Dessau-4] contains a typo. It should be Georg (German) or George (English).
in Genealogy Help by Tim Leahy G2G Rookie (280 points)
retagged by Tim Leahy

3 Answers

+2 votes
I bet is has to do with the lack of sources? If you have sources that prove the connections (or spelling variation), it is best practice to post a comment to the profile with the sources/proof. Then the connection will probably be made by an approved member.
by Michel Vorenhout G2G6 Pilot (222k points)

Thank you for taking the time to reply.  The issue is not, in my view, a question of "sources." Nor did I fail to raised it with a manager of an entry.  Wikipedia.org has listings for both Von_Sachsen-126 and for her father, Wettin-104, which connect them to each other as well as to Anhalt-Zerbst-10.

I'm sorry, but if I look at Wettin-104 I don't see any source on that profile nor a link to Wikipedia. There is also no profile manager which make communicating about the profile a bit difficult.

Von_Sachsen-126 has two links for a Wikipedia page, but also no primary sources nor a comment to request the link. That profile has a manager though, and the pm should respond to your question.

Anhalt-Zerbst-10 is the same: no sources, no comment with sources but with pm.

I am not authorized to go that deep, but I strongly suggest you post a comment with the sources (not a wikipedia page, but books, documents, deeds etc) to show the link. I am sure that with the sources someone will stand up.

Another good trick is to link your question to the profile you want to discuss. You can link the profile when you 'edit' your question. There is a box on the bottom where you place the profile ID. That will link it and attract the attention it needs.

+2 votes

Hi Tim:

You should also edit your question to add the tag "Euroaristo", so that members of the European Aristocrats Project will see this - since your question is about the ruling house of a German state, these are the people who should deal with your question. If you want to read up on the project, see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:European_Aristocrats

by Anonymous Geschwind G2G6 Mach 8 (81.9k points)
+2 votes
Margarete, the daughter of Johann I and his second wife Margarete von Anhalt, was indeed born on 25 Apr 1518 in Zwickau, but in the Kurfürstentum Sachsen, not in Switzerland. She died at the age of 16, almost 17 on 10 Mar 1535 in Weimar. There is no documentation of her ever having been married. Whoever Von Sachsen-126 is, in all likelihood she was not the daughter of Wettin-104 and should not be connected to that family.
by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (544k points)

I agree with almost everything you wrote, Helmut.  In my ancestry.com tree, I have Margarete being born in Saxony as well.  I have not edited her profilein Wikitree.  Where I disagree may not be a real disagreement.  However, as you noted, Johann I (Wettin-104) had a daughter Margarete.  Therefore, it would follow that Von-Sachsen-126 should be connected to Wettin-104 and his second wife, Margarete von Anhalt, who should be added to his profile.

The error, as you pointed out without saying so directly, is that Von-Sachsen-126, if she married Hans Buser, Freiherr von Liestal, [Buser-208] may not have been the father of Hans, fils, who was born three years after her recorded death.  Thus, more work needs to be done to establish that she was the mother of Buser-206, my direct ancestor.

I, too, had recorded Von-Sachsen as having died three years before Buser-206's birth.  I just figured that something was wrong but I did not know which and whose date was wrong.

The Wikipedia.org listing for Buser-208 discusses this issue. The source, however, for the date of death of Von-Sachsen-126 as well as her mother is not an original source but, rather, an 1870 publication.  Here is what is found in Wikipedia.org.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John,_Elector_of_Saxony#Margarethe_(Margaret)_Marriage_to_Hans_Buser

For Johann the Steadfast’s child “Margaret”, an unsourced statement is present indicating marriage to one “Hans Buser, Freiherr of Liestal” on 10 June 1536. The previous unsourced date of death for Margaret was stated as 1545 which would allow for a marriage on that date; however, Behr (1870) indicated her year of death as 1535 (p. 141). As such, a marriage date of 1536 is unlikely and dubious. Given the lack of citation for this marriage, and for a date outside of the documented lifespan for Margaret, additional credible/reliable sources are needed to validate whether 1) A marriage between these lines occurred and, if so, then 2) On what date did said marriage actually occur. Noting that Behr (1870) does not list a spouse for Margaret in his book.

References Behr, Kamill von (1870). Genealogie der in Europa regierenden Fürstenhäuser nebst der Reihenfolge sämmtlicher Päpste (in German). Tauchnitz. p. 141. EB62001 (talk) 02:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Anne-Simone Knöfel: Dynastie und Prestige – Die Heiratspolitik der Wettiner. Köln, Weimar, Wien 2009, p. 75, has Margaret engaged with Friedrich von Liegnitz, a marriage that did not materialize due to the objection of her father who feared that the principality of Liegnitz was with the "zwinglianischen Irrthumb behaftet" (following Zwingli's brand of protestantism). Then, 1535 as death date is widely accepted in the literature, not only by Behr (Reiner Groß: Die Wettiner. Kohlhammer, Stuttgart 2007; Jürgen Helfricht: Die Wettiner. Sachsens Könige, Herzöge, Kurfürsten und Markgrafen. 5. Auflage. Sachsenbuch, Leipzig 2012; Hans Hoffmeister, Volker Wahl (Hrsg.): Die Wettiner in Thüringen. Geschichte und Kultur in Deutschlands Mitte (= Schriften des Thüringischen Hauptstaatsarchivs Weimar. Nr. 2). Rhino, Arnstadt/Weimar 1999; Anne-Simone Knöfel: Dynastie und Prestige. Die Heiratspolitik der Wettiner (= Dresdner historische Studien. Bd. 9). Böhlau. Köln u. a. 2009; Frank-Lothar Kroll (Hrsg.): Die Herrscher Sachsens. Markgrafen, Kurfürsten, Könige 1089–1918. Beck, München 2007). In addition, I found a note which I have not been able to verify so far, that her grave is in the Herderkirche in Weimar where many of the ernestinish line of Wettin were buried. Lastly, a Kurfürst was the second highest rank in the Holy Roman Empire, just behind the emperor himself. The family married into the most influential houses of the time. Margarete's siblings alone were married to: Johann Friedrich to Sibylle, daughter of Johann III Herzog von Jülich-Kleve-Berg; Maria to Philipp I Herzog von Pommern in Wolgast; Johann Ernst to Katharina, daughter of Georg I Herzog von Braunschweig-Grubenhagen. And then Margarete, after an unsuccessful betrothal to the Herzog von Liegnitz, to Hans Buser, Freiherr von Liestal? A title one has to say that only appears in a disputed Wikipedia article about him and various unsourced online genealogy sites, not even mentioned in the Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz article on Liestal referenced in the Hans Buser article. Furthermore, at the time in question Switzerland was already an independent State outside the Holy Roman Empire.

In summa, Margarete was already dead and buried, as accepted by virtually all modern historians, at the time she is supposed to have married Hans Buser. The difference in rank would have made such a marriage highly unlikely. And nobody would really have any political benefit from such a marriage.

If von Sachsen-126 should be attached to Wettin-104, then only after the LNAB is changed to Wettin and the marriage deleted. The biography might be the place where this claim could be mentioned but I'm not convinced even that would be appropriate given the total lack of any source for this marriage.

Danke sehr, Herr Jungschaffer.  Makes sense to me.  Thank you for providing a definitive explanation.  I do not manage the Von_Sachsen-126 profile and, thus, cannot severe the marriage.  And, of course, she was not born in Switzerland.

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