Pre1500 review requested

+6 votes
As Gille Stewart-6424, d.abt 1388, was not alive, 8 years later when her listed son Alexander Graham-1315 was born, I wish to assign him to his mother,  Mariot Oliphant-411 b.abt 1372 and d abt 1404. when she is merged with Mariot Oliphant-76
in Genealogy Help by John Thompson G2G6 Pilot (377k points)
retagged by SJ Baty

3 Answers

+7 votes
Best answer

John, the mother's early death is noted in the profile notes for Alexander Graham but I don't see a pending merge for the Oliphan profiles.  On Oliphant-76 Bobby has left the comment:

Oliphant-411 and Oliphant-76 are not ready to be merged because: Additional sources needed on both profiles.
posted  by Bobbie (Madison) Hall

I'd recommend doing some sleuthing on the Oliphant profiles and on Alexander and see if you can turn up some pre-1500 approved sources.

by SJ Baty G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
selected by Susan Laursen
Thanks for the comment SJ,  My father passed this line on to me 69 years ago and I've memorized it using a computer for the last 18 years. Since joining WikiTree on Jun 15, I've responded to Robin Lee's question, "the Borthwick family......can anybody sort it out?". Of course one connection leads to another......why stop here?..... it's only the beginning. The rules suggest do it on  BOLD.
Thank you, John. As both SJ above and John A. below point out - we need additional source material to prove what is on the existing profiles for all the members of this family. They have just been adopted into our new Arbroath sub-project, and all of these profiles will be thoroughly reviewed, existing sources checked and additional sources will be sought. If your father's research contains some verifiable material, please do add it to the comments on the appropriate profiles and it will be incorporated into the work we do. Without source material that helps to prove the changes you'd like to make, it doesn't make a lot of sense to propose merges and re-assignment of parents yet.
Hi Bobbie,  My grandmother passed away in 1959, and father in 1983......but not before I could memorize all that was told. Luckily, I inherited over 3 boxes of photos and documents to organize.  There is no need to rush, however, the doctor said I'm going to die........eventually.
+5 votes
Hi John

The biographies of Alexander Graham and Gille Stewart are almost certainly copy and pasted from Darryl Lundy's website.  This includes copy and pasting the sources found on that site.

Apart from this being a breach of copyright, I would presume that no one has actually looked at the sources themselves even though some of them are readily available online.

To me this means that both the date Gille died and the date Alexander was born are basically unsourced and decisions about unlinking them based solely on those dates without further investigation would be a mistake.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (640k points)
Good point, is essential the dates be verified, by any or all the accepted means. I would point out that Mary Stewart-1638,  b.abt 1380,  was possibly old enough to mother Alexander as she started the first of 4 marriages starting on 24 May 1397,  including 13 Nov 1413,  her 3rd marriage,  to the father of Alexander,   William himself.

Yes the problem seems to be that Gille Stewart has been attached to an incorrect profile, she is actually Alexander Graham's step-grandmother, the second wife of his grandfather Patrick de Graham (see The Scots Peerage, vol. 6, p. 213-214 where she is named Euphemia or Egidia)

Princess Mary or Mariota Stewart did marry Alexander's father, Sir William Graham (or de Graham) but not until 13 Nov 1413 (though this date can't be confirmed - see The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 1, p. 155), so she can't be Alexander's mother.

We are left with Mariota Oliphant as Alexander's mother, the first wife of William de Graham, but there is no proof of her family (not sure if there is proof of her first name) and The Scots Peerage, vol. 6, p. 217 and back on p. 215 thinks there is confusion over the Marion Oliphant, dau of Sir John Oliphant of Aberdalgie, who married Williams, half-brother Sir Robert (or Robin) Graham, which is confirmed with primary sources.

I would definitely not merge the two Oliphant profiles as proposed, and consider if Oliphant-411 should be changed to Unknown?

Thanks John,  You have definitely given me something interesting to review........might keep me out of mischief for a while.
Thank you John, excellent explanation !!
+3 votes
John Atkinson,   Based on your comments, on the error of the first wife, I studied that situation, formed a conclusion, posted, reviewed again,found an error and erased the posting. Now it is simpler......William had 2 wives,not 3. Alexander had to have a mother, so that could be Mariot or Unknown and another Mariota was too young. Brother, Robert was contracted in marriage with Mariot in 1399 and we have 2 Mariots, the same, to merge and share with the brothers and continue the debate.......subject, of course, to review.
by John Thompson G2G6 Pilot (377k points)
edited by John Thompson
Sorry John, but we don't have two women the same and as I said above to merge them would be a big mistake.  Mariot Oliphant can't be married to two men at the same time, and I'd have to check but it seems unlikely she married one brother and then after his death married the other (apart from the fact that the church at the time would be probably consider such a marriage illegal).

If the decision is that there is better evidence that Mariot Oliphant married Sir Robert Graham, which appears to be the case, then I think the Mariot Oliphant who is the wife of William Graham either needs to have her LNAB changed to Unknown or left as Oliphant but indicate in the biography that this is uncertain.
When I came to WikiTree I was concerned with Alexander's profile, but then went off to review activity on the Borthwick profiles to save Mariot's ( Oliphant-76)  existence, which led me back to Alexander and his father's "other" Mariot and Mariota.   As I had so far overlooked Egidia's status, as you helpfully pointed out, my concerns over Alexander have been addressed and I support removing Egidia as mother and replacing her with, Unknown, complete with a note under, Biography, about Mariot's  (Oliphant-411)  status in regard to William and brother Robert.   I agree that Oliphant-411, at present, exists without known parents and the 38 years from Robert and Mariot's marriage contract until his execution leaves me much to review........hopefully will find Alexander's mother.

Just got back from a day away from the office.....out to lunch, err took the children to a restaurant.....they drove.  Told them about great grampa Alexander who lived on a WikiTreesurprise......and nearly fell out of his tree when he found out his mother was not his mothercrying.......when did this happen?sad......well, it all started  in the 1390's.....where's an OMG when you need it.....when will it endindecision......not to worry, grampa Jack's on itcheeky......and, all of WikiTreelaugh.......lunch was good, beef dipyes                                                                                                                

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