How do I change Towneley-15

Question

I am the profile manager for Richard [Townely-15] b.1499 but I can't change the profile because I don't have Pre_1500 approval/certification.  How does one fix mistakes on these profies?  I mistakenly adopted this profile thinking that I could edit it.

Sir Richard [Towneley-42] (1445-1482) m Joanna Southworth had a son;

 (Sir) John [Towneley-5] "Sherriff of Lancashire" b, 1473-1540 m. Isabella Pilkington had sons;
 

Richard [Towneley-15] 1499-1555 MISTAKE m. Grace Foljambe AND BROTHER Charles Towneley [Towneley-20] d. 1539  m. Elizabeth Kaye 

Richard [Towneley-15] (above) b. 1499- 1555 and Grace Foljambe had a son:

Richard Towneley b.? d. 22 Oct 1554 m. Frances Wimbishe  (NOTE: DIED BEFORE HIS FATHER) There's no profile on Wikitree for this Richard Towneley 

Richard and Frances Wimbishe (no profile on Wikitree are the parents of Mary Towneley b. 1541-1606).

Charles [Towneley-20] m. Elizabeth Kaye are the parents of John [Towneley-141] of Grays Inn b. 1528

Mary [Towneley-142] b. 1541 m. John [Towneley-141] of Grays inn b. 1528.

Please if anyone can correct it please go ahead.  Kind regards, Anna  

Answer 1

Anna - I think your problem here is navigating WikiTree - a common problem with persons new to the site.

So - tags.  Where you have a tag: towneley, you should edit that to towneley-15, which will link to the profile you want to change.  Then add another tag: pre_1500, which will get the attention of pre-1500 members who can make the change.

Now - what you want to do is add a spouse to Towneley-15. You have the name of the spouse you want to add and a source for this name.  To add a spouse, you (or a pre-1500 member) needs to create a profile for the spouse. To do this, you have to supply, at a minimum, the Last Name At Birth of the spouse and her birthdate and/or death date.The location of these events should be included if available. The date and place of the marriage should also be included if it is available.

This is the information you want to add.  The source of the information is the specific page on which it is found.  Then you should confirm the accuracy of the information in your source by using the citation or notes supplied by your source to look it up and make sure it is correct.

Having done this, you have given a pre-1500 member the necessary data to make the change on the profile.

Comments

How do you add a pre-1500 tag specifically pls?  I have tried but I'm not able to edit anything on this profile including adding a tag a spouse or a source.  I added a source in comments with a quote, pg. # etc. and now everyone arguing that it's not a valid source.  Which I note that i find offensive, since many of the sources used in other profiles came from his research.

  If anyone can find what they consider a better source (I doubt it), can add tags, a wife and the son, Sir Richard to this profile please be my guest. Wikitree is all about collaboration, respect for the common goal of growing a world tree.  I'm certain that there is a generation missing between this Richard and daughter Mary and anyone with knowledge of Towneley's pre-1500 authorization should easily be able to find data to back it up.  Respectfully, Anna

---

Anna - I mean add the tag on your question, where you have towneley. On G2G you need to use an underscore instead of a hyphen, thusly:  pre_1500

People with the pre-1500 badge often watch that tag for questions.

A Leader could edit it, which I am not.

Answer 2

Hi Anna. It would be helpful if you can provide your sources for these changes you propose. Also, you'll need to add a tag for Pre-1500 to alert those that are certified to work on these profiles to see your question. They may not troll the G2G everyday, but only follow the tag.

Good sources are very important.

Comments

I tried to add a pre-1500 badge but I don't know how.  I suspect the profile is untouchable except to the few hallowed souls who have pre-1500 approval.  Please see the profile [Towneley-15] where I've added a source in comments with references to pages and quotes.

Answer 3

Edit your question because it should be Towneley-15.  Most people that are not Pre-1500 certified don't adopt Pre-1500 profiles because you can't edit them.

I am not sure I see the problem.  What you posted is using Towneley, which is what the profile has?

Comments

If you want something to be changed on a Pre-1500 profile and you are not certified, those that are certified will expect you to include the Sources either in a comment on the profile or in the G2G question, requesting a change. 

Those profiles must have sources and that profiles does not have anything other than an Ancestry Tree, so it will need some valid sources for something to be updated.

You probably should review Pre-1500 Profiles.  There are quite a few requirements before someone is certified for Pre-1500 Certification. 

---

It is doubtful that Richard Towneley-15, b 1499, d Oct 22 1554 had a son Richard that died on the same day.

Mary Townley-142, (note different spelling) b 1541, d 1606 has Richard Towneley-15 as father and John Townley-141 as husband.

You are saying there is a generation missing between Richard Towneley-15 and Mary Townley-142 for Richard and Elizabeth.  You are spelling her last name different than in that document / source, but there may be multiple spellings also.  The determination would have to be made as to whether someone thinks that item is a valid source.

---

You have some other G2G about this family, one was Pre-1700, but the other was this same family, but it wasn't tagged as Pre-1500, so you are not going to get the appropriate people looking at the question to determine if the source you mention is appropriate. 

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1096103/richard-towneley-m-grace-foljambe

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1095032/advice-before-editing-this-pre-1700-townley-profile

---

He didn't die on the same day. The elder Richard d. 1555 m Grace Foljambe his son, Sir Richard Towneley b. d. 22 Oct 22 Oct 1554.

The son died before his father and there was a dispute between Sir John and his son, the elder Richard over land, which is why, when the younger Sir Richard died before the father, Sir John made sure that his daughter Mary Towneley b 1541 m. John Towneley of Gray's Inn.  

Pls. read: pg 9 "Tracing the Towneleys 2004"

https://www.towneleyhallsociety.co.uk/Towneley.pdf

---

Yes, that's exactly the problem.  There is a generation missing between Richard Towneley [Townely-15] and Mary Townely m.John Towneley of Gray's Inn.

The death date for the son of [Townely-15] is also wrong.  Richard Towneley the son's deathe date should be 22 Oct 1554.  He did before his father,  Richard Towneley m. Grace Foljambe,  who actually died in 1555.  The son died before the father.  This is what led to Sir John, father of the elder Richard,  to arrange the marriage between Mary Towneley to John Towneley of Gray's Inn and probably why she married at only 17yrs. old.  

Pls. see Pg. 9, 16 (pedigree chart) of "Tracing the Towneleys 2004" 

https://www.towneleyhallsociety.co.uk/Towneley.pdf

FYI information I take offense to Wiki tree members questioning the above manuscript as a primary source.  The manuscript was originally written by a member of the family who was a renowned genealogist, Christopher Towneley "The Transcriber" (1604-1674) Pg. 17 of the above manuscript.   He is a grandson of John Towneley of Grays Inn m. Mary Towneley b. 1541. His great grandfather is the aforementioned Sir Richard Towneley d. 22 Oct 1554 m. Frances Wimbishe.  He's a critical member of the Towneley Hall history.  His SECONDARY sources are mentioned on the last page of the manuscript and include many of the references and sources of other Towneleys in Wikitree. 

Respectfully, Anna

---

You're relying in all this on a single source. The point is: how do we know this source is reliable?  It's thorough, but it's not annotated.  That is - it has a bibliography but no citations for individual facts.

It says - "we know this because of an Inquisition post mortem", but it doesn't cite the specific document.  Since WikiTree is an internet site, we tend to look for links to online sources - preferably, not necessarily - and to primary sources. Can you look up the Inquisition pm it mentions? Can you link to it, to confirm the information?  This is the kind of research that pre-1500 genealogists need to do.

So - since it looks like you're going to be doing extensive work on this family, based on this source, citing the source is the FIRST thing you need to do in your question. That is, the specific pages in the source that support the precise change you want to make.

---

I reviewed the information in that document in the Bibliography, but it is not clear from the document, what information was gathered from 'what Bibliography reference' .

All types of Sources are listed at the end of the PDF document  (pages 44-46), but they are not referenced from the 'text' part of the document so we don't know what 'fact' is found in 'what document'.  Some parts of the Generation section (pages 19-28) refers to some of the items with a "CTfnnn' reference, which is explained on Page 18 as a Folio number of Christopher Towneley (CT) 1662 evidences.  Again, what does each of these CTf refer to? How can someone verify the information in this document?  It may be 100% accurate and the 'family' may rely on it, but wikitree wants to be able to verify sources. There are too many 'family stories' that have been passed along from one generation to another, many that have been published and taken as the truth, but later found to be totally made up.

This is similar to the reason for using 'inline citations' in wikitree profiles, so we know what fact was gathered from what source.

---

Exactly so.  There are standard forms for citing historical and genealogical information, and this source doesn't use them. It may be perfectly accurate, but we don't KNOW that, ie, we can't confirm it from the evidence of the .pdf alone.

---

I found another source that validates the other source;

Burkes benealogy & Heraldry History of Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland vol. II, pg. 1397, 1416

---

Sorry Anna, but Burke's peerage publications are another secondary source that don't cite any primary/original sources and depending on what edition can have many errors.  As such it is not recommended as a source for pre-1500 profiles.

This is not to say that both sources are necessarily wrong, just that we try to source pre-1500 profiles with as many primary/original sources as possible.

It's also highly likely that these two secondary sources aren't necessarily independent of each other

---

When we talk about primary sources, the Wills that were mentioned here are a good example.

The use of a source like the one you're using should be to point you in the right direction to find these primary sources. Which is why there need to be citations.

---

There are some very brief abstracts of Inquisitions Post Mortem (ipm) from Lancaster which includes ipms of some of the Towneley family members (unfortunately the dates are by reign year of various kings) available here

There are also Abstracts of inquisitions post mortem made by Christopher Towneley and Roger Dodsworth in 2 volumes available online.  The ipms are in Latin, but there are simplified genealogical charts of the people mentioned in each ipm in English, presumably written by the editor of these volumes William Langton.  The index for Volume 1 is here and Volume 2 here

Answer 4

Hi Anna,

Here are the specific instructions from the Pre-1500 Help page on how to work on Pre-1500 profiles without the badge.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge

Comments

Hi Robin, thank you to all of you for your help. I have found another legitimate source that backs up what i have in the othr source: Burkes Genealogical Heraldric History of the Landed Gentry, Vol. II, pg. 1379, 1416

Answer 5

On the National Archives website there are Wills available for :-

Sir John Towneley of Hapton, Lancashire - made 28 April 1539/Probate granted 20 April 1540  and

Sir Richard Towneley of Towneley Lancashire - made 26 July 1553/Probate granted 26 November 1554.

At the present time, these are free to download.

Regards

Comments

I live in Ottawa, Canada.  Can you provide a web address for the Archives you mention please?

---

Anna, the website is www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

You will need to register, then go to "Discovery" and search for Towneley in 'all archives' with years 1300 to 1600; with the results click 'available for download only' and the Wills will be there.

Regards