What to use for LNAB for Prince Viggo, Count of Rosenborg

+7 votes
161 views

Liz had posted on Prince Valdemar's profile:

On 27 Aug 2020 Liz Marshall wrote on Glücksborg-1:

Can someone make his son Viggo and connect him to his wife Eleanor? I would, but I am afraid of doing the name for Viggo wrong as it seems to be fairly complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Viggo,_Count_of_Rosenborg

The three present children for Prince Valdemar all have different surnames.  What is the correct surname to use for the children, including a new profile for Prince Viggo?

WikiTree profile: Valdemar af Danmark
in Genealogy Help by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (432k points)

A similar dilemma was brought up in this G2G post in 2017:  https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/365897/danish-schleswig-holstein-sonderburg-glucksburg-dynasty, but I don't see as a decision was made.  One person commented that the Danish royal family calls themselves Glücksborg.  Can people please assist so we can give Prince Viggo a profile and perhaps correct his siblings surnames (or tell me if they should remain as they are)?  Thank you.

2 Answers

+5 votes

We went through this issue several years ago with the profile for the current crown prince of Denmark (before all the living profiles got hidden).  Project Denmark decided to follow the naming guidelines of the European Aristocrats Project on how to use the name fields since the nobility of Denmark is so intertwined with other European aristocratic houses.  Since Valdemar has a EuroAristo sticker, it is clear his profile has been identified as a part of that project.

Under those guidelines, house names are preferred over topic or location names like "af Danmark."  Valdemar, like his father, was a member of the House of  Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Glücksborg, so that should be his Last Name at Birth.  Aristocratic titles go in the Nickname field, so the Danish word for prince, i.e. Prins, should go in the Nickname field.  The "of location" type of last name usually goes in the Other Last Name or Current Last Name field under those guidelines.  Some of the examples but the version in the native language in current last name and the English version in Other Last Name field.  This ensures that the profile can be found by the names that will commonly be searched.

So for Valdemar, my understanding of these guidelines is that "af Danmark" would go in the Current Last Name field and "of Denmark" would go in the Other Last Name field.

Mary Jensen

Coordinator of Project Denmark

by Mary Jensen G2G6 Mach 9 (98.6k points)

Hi Mary

I'm actually a leader of the European Aristocrats Project (so I know what goes where).  wink  But thank you.

I'm certainly a rookie with Danish names, however.  The prior discussion from 2017 is the one I referenced above.  However, in that discussion, I see no final resolution.   Helmut said, "It is my belief that after the 16th century we should forget about house names."  And another person said:   "The Danish royal family call themselves Glücksborg."

Before proceeding to create a profile for Prince Viggo, I want to be sure if Glücksborg really is correct.

Darlene,

We were not very good about keeping our discussion on G2G and linked to the profile back then.  There are some more off G2G email discussions that I think involved Isabelle, Jack Day, Doug Straiton, Lena, and some others.  Isabelle was working on the profile that started the discussion and was the one who raised the issue. My participation was primarily on whether there was anything in Danish naming law or custom that would be in conflict with the EuroAristo guidelines.

From the Danish naming laws and customs point of view, there did not seem to be any reason to depart from the EuroAristo guidelines.  The aristocracy was the first group to adopt heritable Slægtsnavn or family names and were required to do so by royal decree after 1526.  Their slægtsnavn was usually the same as the house name. Anything else would probably have been considered a tilnavn (byname or discriptive name which could transfer to later generations and could be adopted as a slægtsnavn but wasn't required to be passed on). But you do have to look at each one individually as there was a sort of tendency to tack on more parts to form a more complex house name especially when someone married up to strengthen a claim or to broaden the scope of territory covered.  

Everything I've looked at on Valdemar's father showed he clearly had a multipart complex house name and that would usually be inherited down to his son.  The default in Danish naming law at the time of Prins Valdemar's birth was that children got the same slægtsnavn as their father had.  Patronyms might still be some part of a name, but they would not have been the surname at birth.

I would be cautious about simplifying down to a single house name, especially without more support than what one person thinks the royal family calls themselves. Between a long period when Danish kings were elected and some recent Danish kings not having direct offspring, the Danish royal family veered off to some cadet houses or different house names more than once in modern history. Historical documents also indicate many Danish aristocrats with complex house names varied their use among the parts depending upon whom they were dealing with and how formal or informal a document was. So I would want some documentary evidence of intent to change the slægtsnavn before giving anyone a house name that differed substantially from the father's house name.

But I don't see anything in these points which conflicts in any way with EuroAristo guidelines, so I would just follow them.

So would that make Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Glücksborg the LNAB that should be used?
Mary, thank you.  Since you are the coordinator for the Denmark project, would you like to proceed with creating the profile for Prince Viggo?  Or do you want the EuroAristo project to oversee it?

Liz, since Helmut and Mary agree and we've had no other responses, I am fine with going with that for the LNAB.

Liz, I agree that the LNAB should be Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Glücksborg.  

Darlene, I would prefer EuroAristo to do it.  As you have noticed, most of those names have strong German connections even if we are using the Danish language versions of them.  Project Denmark has a time limitation to its scope as the time when written records begin to be widely available corresponds relatively closely with the split with Norway and Sweden.  Since that time, the Danish royal family has had very close ties with a number of royal houses in other parts of Europe, especially the parts which eventually became part of Germany. So we think those profiles will have more consistent familial care if they are looked after by EuroAristo which has knowledge of royalty all over Europe.

We are glad to help with information on Danish naming laws and customs or anything else we can be of help with, but we are also happy to see Danish royal profiles getting all the loving care the European Aristocrats project can give them.  Wikitree collaboration at its best.

Mary

I do not want to complicate anything but Danish Wikipedia only uses Glücksborg for both Viggo and his father. On the other hand, the Wikipedia page for Glücksborg house, state that the official name of the house is Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg(-Sønderborg)-Glücksborg.

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viggo_af_Rosenborg

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gl%C3%BCcksburgske_sl%C3%A6gt

He was born a prince but lost the title when he married a non-royal, he was then titled "greve af Rosenborg", https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greve_af_Rosenborg ("greve" is usually translated with count).

I anyone is working on the Danish royal family, perhaps the last name should be edited to the Danish version of the name, Slesvig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Glücksborg and not the german one.

I've created the profile.  If someone can add information and sources other than the Wikipedia article, it would be appreciated.
I added his wife to the profile! Thanks for adding him, Darlene, and for trying to figure this whole mess out for me! There is a link on her profile to the marriage record. I will orphan her now - just wanted to see it out to make sure that they were connected. Looks like the tree could get good connections out of it on both sides!
+6 votes
The official name of the ruling house of Denmark is Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Glücksborg. Considering the German origin (Glücksburg is after all in the German state Schleswig-Holstein) the ducal line should in my opinion probably be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg but the descendants after Christian IX should have the Danish version.
by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (543k points)
I would agree.
Thanks for responding, Helmut.  Mary, as the coordinataor for Denmark, do you want to create and oversee the profile?

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