Disconnect these parents?

+7 votes
221 views
I notice this question has been raised many times and gotten nowhere so it seems a good idea to open it to a bigger forum. Is there any reason to leave this connection?
WikiTree profile: Jeanne St Leger
in Genealogy Help by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Pilot (107k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill
I added the England tag. I'm traveling this week and don't have the ability to research. Did you reach out to the PM? If sources indicate parents are incorrect, and no one challenges that in the next few days, I would proceed. Thanks, Andrew!
As I understand it the PM is opposed, but admits to having no source. Hence I am not rushing this.

1 Answer

+6 votes
 
Best answer
If there is evidence that Gilles de Luxembourg did have a daughter Jeanne, but there is no evidence/reliable sources that she married Arnold St Leger, then it might be better to leave her attached to the parents but remove husband and children?

That way there is no need to change her Last Name at Birth (LNAB) which essentially creates a whole new WikiTree ID.  Then a separate profile can be created for Arnold St Leger's wife, whomever she might be. Provided of course that one doesn't already exist.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (478k points)
selected by Carol Baldwin
As I understand it there is no evidence of there being such a daughter. Note that this the parents are in a noble continental family, while the wife in question is in an English family. Part of my reason for posting here though is to check if there is perhaps some source somewhere.

Cawley lists 4 children of Gilles and Clémence (Marguerite, Raoul, Wencelin, Henri) but I found vague references of Jeanne, daughter of Gilles bâtard de Luxembourg and Clémence de La Tour, and married to Herman de Lenoncourt. She is listed as "sister of Wencelin" confirming it's the same family. See https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5424948p/f433.image.r=gilles%20batard%20luxembourg?rk=21459;2 - Unfortunately most of them are in post-1900 books I can't access and the one I've linked is La Chenaye-Desbois and I don't trust him. It's also quite confusing with the many inter-marriages with the Lenoncourt family.

Ah yes I forgot that. Now I get it John. So there might be a Jeanne, but she still lived in France and married someone else. In that case we might need to split the profile. This raises the question of whether there is a real record for the English Jeanne (or Joanne?) who married a St Leger. What evidence exists for that wife?

From the biography of the son John St Leger, it looks like Douglas Richardson has the family in his books.  I don't own any, but perhaps someone who does can have a look and see if John's mother's name is mentioned?  Or see what sources Richardson cites?

I haven't found anything that names any wife or wives of Arnold St Leger so far.

I also notice that none of the other 3 children of Arnold St Leger and Jeanne, have any reliable sources, only Ancestry trees.

Richardson only mentions St Leger in passing due to John's marriage to Margery Donet.  RA4, p. 460-1: "She married John Saint Leger, Esq., of Ulcombe, Kent, Sheriff of Kent, 1430-1, and in right of his wife, of Silehan (in Rainham), Kent,  son of Ralph Saint Leger."  He cites the The Visitation of Kent by Benolte & Cooke which has a St Leger pedigree that starts with John St Leger, p. 68.  He also cites Hasted's The history and topographical survey of the county of Kent, Vol. 6, p. 9 which mentions the marriage.  There is actually more information in Hasted, Vol. 5, p. 389 (link, link), which in a typically ambiguous manor says:

Ralph St. Leger possessed this manor in the reign of Edward III. when he paid aid for it, as two knights fees, held of the archbishop; in which year he represented this county in parliament. His youngest son, Thomas, was of Otterden, where a further account may be seen of him. Arnold St. Leger, the eldest son, succeeded his father at Ulcomb, and represented this county in parliament, as did his son Ralph St. Leger, esq. of Ulcomb, and in the 10th year of Richard II. was sheriff of it. His son John St. Leger. esq. was of Ulcomb, and was likewise sheriff, anno 9 Henry VI. three years after which, he was returned in the list then taken of the gentry in this county, who had a right to bear the coat armour of their ancestors. He died anno 20 Henry VI. possessed of this manor, and was buried in this church. He left three sons; Ralph, who succeeded him at Ulcomb; Sir Thomas, who married Anne, duchess of Exeter, and left a sole daughter and heir, married to Sir George Manners, lord Ross, ancestor of the earls and dukes of Rutland; and Sir James St. Leger, who married Anne, daughter and coheir of Thomas Butler, earl of Ormond, from whom the St.Legers, of Devonshire, are descended.

I didn't see anything about Arnold's wife or John's mother in these references. 

It is strange because often we can find the old book where a theory first appeared, but I can't see anything except recent online family trees.

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