Who was Conrad Carpenter's (B. 1726) father?

+4 votes
244 views
Hi all,

I believe that it was George Carpenter, 2nd Baron Carpenter, Earl of Tyreconnell but some official records contradict this buly not acknowledging that he was a son. For context, Conrad's son was Admiral Sir James Carpenter. I find it odd that the latter could generate such an esteemed career unless his dad's lineage was special.

If Conrad's link to the 2nd Baron Carpenter is confirmed, I am an 8th cousin of the current Marquees of Waterford, a 6th cousin to the current 7th Baron of Leconfield, and a direct descendent of Drieu of Normandy (1066), who was one of William the Conqueror's knights. I think!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
in Genealogy Help by Peter Leighton-Jones G2G Rookie (280 points)
retagged by Ellen Smith

3 Answers

+4 votes

Sorry Peter, I haven't found anything definite but a couple of Admiral James Carpenter's biographies/obituaries don't mention anything about being descended from Baron Carpenter family, or related to Earls Tyreconell and I think if he was related to them there would be some mention.

See his obituary in The Gentleman's Magazine, 1845, and his entry in O'Byrne's Naval biographical dictionary.

He would be the same time frame as Horatio Nelson, so it wasn't necessary to be a member of a peerage family to succeed in the Royal Navy.

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (481k points)

Although not always the most reliable of sources, the Wikipedia article for George Carpenter, 2nd Baron Carpenter, only has two children, his son George Carpenter who succeeded him, and a daughter Hon. Alicia Maria Carpenter.  No Conrad.

Hi John,

Thanks for the response. It's strange as the wiki entry says that George (the 1st Earl of Tyreconnell, & 3rd Baron Carpenter) was the only "surviving son" of the 2nd Baron and his wife. George was born in 1723 so would have inherited the title ahead of Conrad, if the latter existed. I wonder if Conrad was born out of wedlock, which is why the record is silent on his origins?

I know a user called Sandra might be able to verify all this via a comparison of our respective DNA tests, as she is apparently a descendent of the 3rd Baron Carpenter.

Cheers,

Pete

Also see this: https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/genealogie-richard-remme/I182850.php

I've contacted the applicable genealogist to find out more as he has multiple additional siblings listed for George Carpenter (3rd Baron Carpenter), including Conrad.

I can't say that the sourcing of that line appears promising at all.

How do Ancestry stitch together profile pages of people of note? Sources, etc? This entry references multiple children born to the 2nd Baron Carpenter:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/george-carpenter-van-killaghy-24-25m3pf

It is often the case that people, searching for ancestors and especially noble ancestors, see a name and decide with no evidence that it must be the same person. This connection makes its way onto the internet and spreads.

I have found this to be the case with my own ancestors.
+4 votes

Hi Peter 

I had a quick look as Admiral James Carpenter just made it into the 1841 census. (Note that he wasn't knighted, so no Sir in his titles). 

This sharing image from Ancestry shows he was living in St Marylebone, London aged 80, occupation "Navy", wife Eliza aged seventy something, daughter Julia aged 30. None of them born in Middlesex. That makes James born about 1760.

His will (sharing image) shows that he had three daughters to whom he left very large bequests: Julia (unmarried), Maria married to Rev Capel Molyneux and Frances married to Rev Whitworth Russell. Also a son Charles who at that time was resident in Walthamstow Essex and inherited the remainder of the estate. I believe that this is Charles already on Wikitree  especially as he has a neice Julia Molyneux staying at the 1861 census. Charles was born in Saltash, Cornwall, so this is probably your next focus for the origins of this Carpenter family.

by Jo Fitz-Henry G2G6 Pilot (101k points)

Will of Charles Carpenter of Moditonham, Cornwall 1831. (Very near Saltash)

"I give to each of the daughters of my Brother Admiral Carpenter one hundred pounds and the like sum to my Sister in Law his Wife"

Also Charles Carpenter, nephew is his executor.

I think you have your link to Cornwall.

There is a James Carpenter, the son of Samuel or Sam Carpenter, baptised at Launceston, St Mary Magdalene, Cornwall on 1 Aug 1759, and a Charles Carpenter, also son of Samuel baptised same parish 24 May 1757 who is probably his brother.  There were other children as well.

A Charles Carpenter was buried 8 Mar 1831 at Lanteglos by Camelford, age 74 and this would fit with a baptism in 1757.  And the 1759 baptism of James Carpenter fits with his age of 80 in 1841 census and his obituary stating he was in his "86th year of his age" when he died 16 March 1845.

This is all from the Cornwall OPC database.
In the 1861 Census his niece Julia Molyneux is listed on WikiTree, see Molyneux-629
Hi everyone, I too am looking at the admiral but specifically his daughter Maria born around 1806 died around 1869.

If my links are correct, she is my partner's 3rd gen grandmother if, infact, she did marry Henry Hill at St Pancreas 10/02/1822.

I am building a tree on Ancestry.com but can anyone say why there is no information on Maria's parent, the admiral and Elizabeth Hosking?

Another query, earlier in these posts it says his daughter Julia was unmarried, I have a Julia Graham Carpenter married to Major General Sir Harry St George Ord, I have info linking her with Maria (unless this is a different set of sisters) - Wikitree has Julia Graham and Maria Carpenter as the Admiral's daughters but there is no mention of Charles.

If someone can give me clarity on any of these points I would be very very grateful as Maria has led me a merry dance for the last few months

Regards

Vincent Revie
Hi Vincent

The easiest question to answer is the first one. There is little information about this family as this is a Wiki and no-one has entered anything about them. Neither myself or John Atkinson have any skin in the game with this family - we were just giving pointers to where people involved in the family may be able to find information to start working on them themselves.

Julia was unmarried at the time her father died and this is how she was referred to in her father's will - she later married Major Ord.

The brother Charles is here on Wikitree, but we left the existing profile managers to sort out the connections.

This Maria Carpenter definitely married the Rev Capel Molyneux - this is her husband as referred to in her father's will. She married Rev. Capel Molyeux on 12 June 1832 at Pelham Chapel at Hastings, Sussex (Marriage announcement in the Morning Post 14 June 1832, British Newspaper Archive). Unfortunately those church records aren't digitised online on either Ancestry or FindMyPast to confirm whether she was a spinster. BUT the marriage announcement referred to her as "Maria the second daughter of Vice-Admiral James Carpenter" which is a form of words used for previously unmarried women.

In the 1861 census Maria Molyneux's age was given as 54, giving a birth year of 1807. If this was the same Maria Carpenter who married at St Pancras in 1822, she would have been aged about 15 and would have needed parental consent.

Is your partner's Hill-Carpenter tree here on Wikitree, so we can follow your workings back to the 1822 marriage?
Good morning Jo

thank you so much for the reply, my partner's tree isn't on Wiki but I will start a new tree today and input as much as I can about the Hill-Carpenter family and I will let you know how I am getting on.

On a separate matter, how do I know I have a reply to my post (except for email) as I had to search for your reply, doesn't Wiki have a notification system of some sort or am I just blind lol.

I will start inputting the new tree, once again thank you for your reply

Regards

Vincent
Hello again Jo

I have started the tree so we can investigate Maria Carpenter, I have input a direct link from my partner to Maria, I am now going to add siblings etc as they may hold information pertinent to the current search.

Regards

Vincent
Hi Vincent

When you get a notification that there is a reply to a comment, the link in that email should take you directly to the place in the thread.

When you have got a Wikitree-ID for your Maria Carpenter, pop another comment in this thread with the URL, then I'll know where to find her. I also added the marriage announcement for Maria Carpenter and Capel Molyneux to their profiles last night.
Thank you Jo, much appreciated
Hi Vincent. Have you got anywhere at all with the Maria Carpenter (1803-1863) who married Henry Hill??? They were my x5 great'grandparents! I too am befuddled by Maria. People on Ancestry have pegged her to Admiral James Carpenter but the official records only show one daughter called Maria, who married a Rev. Moluneux. That said, our Maria was born at sea, which lends itself to a possible association with a naval family. Any decent insights would be much appreciated!

Good morning Peter,

thank you for the emails that you sent regarding Maria, I have forwarded them on to another correspondent who is looking into the Carpenter/Hill senario and she has said the following "The claim that Maria was born on Sulawesi Tengah is wrong.  Quite some time back now I was in contact with someone on Ancestry researching Maria Carpenter and I asked them where they found this information.  All I could reference was that Maria was born on the Atlantic Ocean.  The answer that they gave was when researching, this came up as a possible location so they added it with no evidence to support it. Now that Ancestry is so widely used, many trees have saved this but it has no substance."

Whether this is true or not, obviously needs further investigating but it seems to me that "our Maria" is a bigger mystery than most people realise, I am asking if I didn't have a copy of her marriage record to Henry Hill, I would be asking if she ever existed at all !!

This will help as it will either rule in or out where Maria was born which get us a little closer to the outcome.

Regards

Vincent

0 votes

I have attached the two other children of Admiral James Carpenter who already happened to be on Wikitree.

These are Charles Carpenter and Frances Carpenter

This now completes the four adult children mentioned in his will - there may be others who died young.

by Jo Fitz-Henry G2G6 Pilot (101k points)
According to some family papers, Maria Carpenter's father in law, Captain John Molyneux R.N., served with her father on the North American Station.
Gerard, it would be fab if you could scan those family papers and create a Free Space Page for them. Then they could be used as a unique source for the Carpenter and Molyneux families.

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