Are these two men half brother or not? Research assistance needed please [closed]

Question

Jean and Jacques Aubuchon are stated to be half-brothers by Jetté.  Tanguay and Godbout do not make the connection.  They are both from the parish of St-Rémy in Dieppe, for which records are online, but not particularly in order.

Have put all the data I found on the documentation on this side of the big pond that links them on their profiles.  It is pretty scanty.

Is there a friendly researcher who would be willing and able to do research in Dieppe records on them please?  My eyes are just not up to it.  Jacques https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Aubuchon-16 has a Fichier origine, not recent, Jean doesn't have one.

Comments

Les registres des mariages de Dieppe Saint-Rémi ont été dépouillés par le Cercle généalogique Rouen Seine-Maritime. On y trouve un certain nombre d'Aubuchon/Aubusson, mais sans lien évident avec ceux dont on parle ici :

Pierre Aubusson et Catherine Marchant, 6 Aug 1617

Pierre Deshays et Jeanne Aubuchon, 18 Apr 1627

Léonard Morin et Prudence Aubusson, 9 Jul 1640

Jacques Guillebert et Hélène Aubuchon, 24 Jan 1644

Jean Baptiste Barrey et Catherine Aubuchon, 11 May 1648

Antoine Aubusson et Madeleine Viger, 26 Nov 1651

Nicolas Aube et Jeanne Aubuchon, 3 Feb 1658

Les baptêmes et sépultures de Saint-Rémi, et les autres paroisses, ne sont semble-t-il pas dépouillés.

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Bonjour Julien, Jean Aubuchon marié avec Catherine Marchant sont les père et mère de Jacques dans cette histoire.  Alors je me pose la question à savoir si le Pierre Aubusson que vous avez en tête de liste est le bon nom pour le père de Jacques, et quelqu'un s'est fourvoyé quelque part.

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mdr, quelqu'un s'est en effet fourvoyé quelque part, je viens de trouver l'inventaire original (fait en 1730) des minutes du notaire Claude Lecoustre, et le père de Jacques y est nommé Pierre et non Jean.  Dommage que le contrat original n'est pas en ligne.

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Tant qu'on y est pour Pierre Aubuchon, je pense que la date de décès indiquée (Sep 1654) n'a de sens que si Jean fils et Jacques sont demi-frères, et dans ce cas c'est *avant* cette date. En effet c'est la date du mariage de Jean, où son père est dit défunt.

Mais il me semble maintenant plus vraisemblable que Jean et Jacques soient simplement cousins (germains ou non).

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je suis d'accord, nulle part n'y a-t'il une référence de fraternité entre eux, la date de décès était auparavant notée 1647 si ma mémoire est bonne.  Sans source réelle pour cette date.

Answer 1

Since I noted your recent activity on the Aubuchon profiles, I was actually wondering the same thing -what exactly is the evidence for the two being half-brothers. I assumed it was the marriage contract that you cited. I have been through the Dieppe records and have not found any mention of Jean Aubuchon dit l'Esperance or his parents. The records for Jacques Aubuchon's baptism (as a twin) and his sister Marie are accurate, but I did not find the 6 August 1617 marriage of their parents Jean Aubuchon and Catherine LeMarchand, nor the 12 January 1585 baptism of his father, supposedly at Saint-Rémy parish.

Comments

hi Roger,

I couldn't keep on with the Dieppe records, my eyes just aren't up to it.  But the biggest problem seems to be that they are somewhat helter-skelter in there, not straight sequential.

The only evidence of their connection is that they both get concessions in Trois-Rivières area at the same time, and the presence of Jacques' wife at Jean's marriage contract.  Which was done in Québec city or thereabouts, so Jacques might not have been able to attend.  I have found no baptism where one of them or his wife is godparent of the other's child, but since they lived a fair distance apart, that isn't a true indication.

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http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/1986900 ''Origine des familles canadiennes-françaises : extrait de l'état civil français, première série'' par Archange Godbout, SOCIÉTÉ SAINT-AUGUSTIN, DESCLÉE, DE BROUWER & Cie, 41, RUE DU METZ, LILLE 1925

This is Godbout's work which mentions them, PDF you can download, pg 56 mentions Jean, pg 68 Jacques and his family.

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I have a copy of Godbout's book. Since he lists the two Aubuchon in different places it seems to indicate he didn't find they were of the same family. He also didn't note any acts in the records concerning Jean, which is reassuring since I didn't either. You are correct that the records are difficult to search as there are often more than one 'file' for the same period, and the two parishes to consider.

One other possible factor is the young age of Jean when he emigrated which suggests he may have followed his older half-brother's course.

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Jean's age is only based on census data, which can be misleading as all h..., found one man listed as aged around 40 on such a census, no way was he that young, there is evidence of his acting as notary way before the possible time of his age.  There are also censuses that give an erroneous age to people whose baptism we have.  Talon's work particularly is a bit for the birds in this respect.

Answer 2

My wife is a descendant of Jean Aubuchon and Jeanne Gille.  She was born and raised in Prairie du Rocher, Randolph Co., Illinois, USA where parts of the Aubuchon family settled.  There was a book, entitled "Randolph County, Illinois - Commemorative Edition - 1795-1995" that was compiled by the Randolph County Genealogical Society of Chester, Illinois in 1995.  In it is the following entry from page 174. "AUBUCHON - Jean Aubuchon "dit" L'Esperance was born in Dieppe, Normandie, France about 1635.  He was the son of Jean and Anne Gille, and half-brother of Jacques Aubuchon, "dit" LeLoyal, born 1617, son of Jean and Catherine Marchant, who put down roots in Canada about 1640."

The book's entry on the AUBUCHON family then goes on to discuss the subsequent generations of the family whose members (including three grandsons of Jean Aubuchon dit L'Esperance - Joseph, Pierre, and Antoine - sons of his son Joseph (b.19 Mar 1664)) - "journeyed to the Illinois country and are the ancestors of most of the AUBUCHONs in the Midwest - and their far flung descendants."

Comments

hi Rikard, that book is not the only place the two men are said to be half-brothers.  Only problem is, there is no evidence of the relationship found.  Nowhere is it said that they are even related in documents from that era on this side of the big pond.  The only evidence is circumstancial, they both get a concession at the same time and place (no mention of relationship), and Jacques' wife is present at the marriage contract of Jean (no mention of relationship).

By the way, your wife is my distant cousin.  

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The Aubuchon relationship of my wife is through her father's mother's mother's line via Elizabeth Aubuchon, b. 23 Sep 1738 at Kaskaskia, Pais des Illinois, Canada, New France; d. 1775 at Ste. Genevieve in Louisiana (aka Missouri).  Elizabeth married Dominique Thomure de LaSource (1730-1767) at Kaskaskia on 1 Jul 1755.

Elizabeth was the oldest daughter of Antoine Aubuchon (1703-1761) and Elisabeth Delaunaise (Delaunay) (1723-1761) who were married on 1 Feb 1737 at Kaskaskia.  Antoine had a previous wife, Agathe Gervaise, whom he married at Pointe-aux-Trembles, Quebec, on 18 Nov 1726.

Antoine was the youngest child of Joseph Aubuchon (1664-1749) and Elisabeth Isabelle Cusson (1667-1711).  Antoine was one of the three Aubuchon brothers who migrated from Quebec to the Illinois country.

Joseph was a son of Jean dit L'Esperance Aubuchon (1632/35-1685) and Marguerite Sedilot (1643-Bef 1710).

Note: In my tree I have Jean being born in 1632 (unsourced - date likely from a local family tree I used in my early genealogical research days 35 years ago), and Catherine Marchand dying in 1632, which leads me to the supposition that she died from complications of childbirth at age 37, making Jean and Jacques full brothers.  If Jean actually was born later (e.g., 1635 as the local historical society thinks) then they would have been half-brothers.  Is this story the root of the uncertainty in whether Jean and Jacques are brothers or half-brothers?

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I know, every tree and its twin have taken up Jetté's conclusion, but it just isn't so, the evidence isn't there, and Jacques' father is actually named Pierre and not Jean, so not the same man at all.  Found the evidence for that, on Jacques' profile now.

Jean's dob is mainly based on census data from here, which was actually estimation of age by the census taker from what I can conclude, considering the wide variations from one census to the next on the same person.

Answer 3

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just found the answer to the question.  Jacques' father is named Pierre, NOT Jean.  The inventory of notarial acts done in 1730 of the marriage contract between Jacques Aubuchon and Mathurine Poisson clearly gives the name of Jacques' father.  Will be loading it onto the relevant profiles.  

The problem stems mainly from the marriage record for Jacques, which you can also see on his profile.  It is very hard to read, poor handwriting, with Jacques' name not even entered properly to start with.

Comments

1730???  Can't be the same person if the date is correct as Jacques was born circa 1617.  And if a typo and the date was 1630, Jacques would only have been 13 years old.  Again unlikely we have the same personage.

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the inventory of all notarial records of past and present notaries in the colony was done in 1730 at the king's order.  The person doing the inventory painstakingly went through the extant records and itemized them.

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Ahh!  My bad.  I misinterpreted the wording "notorial acts done in 1730"  as the acts actually being from 1730 that were being inventoried.

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This is very good detective work Danielle, with credit to Julien for his contribution. Collaborative efforts are what sustains my participation on WikiTree.

The 6 August 1617 marriage date for Jacques Aubuchon's parents has now been verified (though I'm not exactly clear on Julien's source) and his father's name established as Pierre. This however invites revisiting the baptismal records for the couple's children -the twins record is conveniently available on Jacques' Fichier Origine file. A perplexing question arises. The father and oldest sons' names are represented by only a stylized initial, which has obviously been supposed (by Godbout for one) to be 'J' for Jean; while the younger son is thought to be 'Jacques'. Catherine, the mother's last name is not given on the record. One might then surmise that this is not the correct couple after all, but rather a Jean Aubuchon and wife Catherine.

But not so fast. The godfather of the younger twin is Jacques Marchant, so possibly a relative of the unnamed Catherine. Perhaps what has been read as the initial 'J' is in fact a 'P' for Pierre. The consequence is that the first twin shares his father's name, Pierre. However the initial of the younger twin's name appears to match those of his father and brother not his godfather Jacques, so might instead be the uncommon name 'Pacquier'. Comparison in the page with other instances of capital J -occuring in the names Jacques and Jehanne for example are written consistantly. The capital P occuring elsewhere in this record supports interpretation as Pierre.

Regardless of whether it is in fact the immigrant Jacques' baptism record, it would seem at the least to definitely be his correct family. The baptismal record of Marie Aubuchon (in a different parish record) names her parents in full "Jean Aubuchon & Catherine le Marchand", so is open to speculation.

I would be curious to know how others would interpret this question of the abbreviated 'J'/'P'.

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actually, looking at the image, it's a P Aubusson that shows as the father's name.  Not a J.  The loop on the J is not closed on Jacques' name, whereas on his twin and father's initials, it is.

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Roger: my source is not publicly available, you can find it on Geneanet with a paid subscription, or through Geneabank if you are a member of one participating societies, or event buy the full file from CGRSM (it's not cheap!).

However, the original record is not too difficult to find, as it is on the first pages of the second register: Dieppe, paroisse Saint-Rémy, registres paroissiaux BMS 1615-1631, Archives départementales de Seine-Maritime, 4 E 262, image 13/321. It is very terse and reads : "P aubusson epouse Cath marchant", under a line with just the month "aoust". I don't where the day comes from, there may be another occurrence.

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I also found the original image for the baptism of the twins, Pierre/Jean and Jacques, which is in fichier origine: Dieppe, paroisse Saint-Rémy, registres paroissiaux B 1615-1625, Archives départementales de Seine-Maritime, 3 E 00999, image 32/175. I am not completely sure about the J's and P's...

Edit: I just noted that Roger found it too. But I did not find the baptism of their sister Marie in Dec 1629.

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Thanks for the citation Julien. I found the entry which I clearly missed before as I would have taken the initial P for a J and surely have noted it. Also appreciate learning what your source for the date was on Geneanet. In the same record you cited for this marriage there are two children of Pierre Aubuchon and his wife Jacqueline; Anne baptized 29 Mar 1613 is image 82/321; and Louis baptized in Jun 1615 is image 21/321. Whether the father Pierre is the same as the husband of Catherine Marchant is unknown.

The baptism of Marie Aubuchon daughter of Jean Aubuchon and Catherine LeMarchand is in the 1626-1652 record of Baptism -cote 3E 00999 image 49/229.