Bürgin-326 Need help with location historical name and sourcing of person

+6 votes

I adopted the unsourced profile of Ursula (Bürgin) Fäsy

I need some help with how to write Mengen for the 1600s.  According to Wikipedia it was one of the so called 5 Danube Free Cities.  It had ties to a Hapsburg King.  Germany did not exist yet.  So is it Mengen, Habsburgh Free City?   Or is it Mengen, Austria?  Arch Duchy of Austria or something else?  I need to fix the death location.

Now that takes me to next piece, I need help finding good sources for this profile.  It came as a gedcom upload and I am drawing a blank on this one.   Please help!

WikiTree profile: Ursula Fäsy
in Genealogy Help by Laura Bozzay G2G6 Pilot (810k points)

4 Answers

+9 votes
In 1697 (The death date of the mentioned person) Mengen was part of the so called Vorderösterreich or Vorlande. It was owned by the archdukes of Austria (Habsburger) but not part of Austria. The Archduchy Austria and Vorderösterreich were both part of the Holy Roman Empire.

So you may name the location in WikiTree:

Mengen, Vorderösterreich, Heiliges Römisches Reich
by Dieter Lewerenz G2G Astronaut (3.1m points)

Perhaps Schwäbisch-Österreich since Vorderösterreich never was a unified territory?

Vorderösterreich, formerly the Vorlande, is a collective name for the former Habsburg possessions west of Tyrol and Bavaria.

Swabian Austria was the mostly Upper Swabian part of Vorderösterreich. From 1490 onwards it included the possessions of the House of Habsburg in the Duchy of Swabia until the Peace of Pressburg in 1805.

That is the problem that it was never a unified territory.

I mean that both versions are correct.
Just thinking, Schwäbisch-Österreich was administered from Innsbruck at that time while the rest of Vorderösterreich was administered first from Ensisheim, then Freiburg.
So which should I use in the field and then I think if both are correct we could put the other one in the bio with a note!

Thanks this is great info!  I will also ask Ales to add both to the locations so they don't error out.

That is a map of Vorderösterreich about 1780. You see why it is so complicated. At this time Mengen is part of the Oberamt Stockach of Vorderösterreich.

Vorderösterreich is different from all the other Habsburg lands because it was never consolidated into one crownland. While I would consider "Vorderösterreich" sufficient, Schwäbisch-Österreich is a well established entity to allow us greater specificity:

  • Schwäbisch-Österreich, German Wikipedia: "Im Jahre 1651 wurde Freiburg im Breisgau Regierungssitz von Vorderösterreich. Schwäbisch-Österreich blieb aber weiterhin der Zentralverwaltung in Innsbruck unterstellt." (In 1651 Freiburg became the seat of government of Vorderösterreich. Schwäbisch-Österreich, however, continued to be subject to the central administration in Innsbruck.)
  • Schwäbisch-Österreich, Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz: "S. gehörte neben Vorarlberg und Vorderösterreich zu den habsburg. Vorlanden ..." (Schwäbisch-Österreich together with Vorarlberg and Vorderösterreich belonged to the Habsburg Vorlanden ...)
  • Vorderösterreich, Historisches Lexikon Bayerns: "Erwerbungen aus über fünf Jahrhunderten: Vorderösterreich im engeren Sinne ("Alt-Vorderösterreich"), Schwäbisch-Österreich und die vorarlbergischen Herrschaften "im Walgäu"." (Acquisitions over more than 500 years: Vorderösterreich in the narrow sense ("Alt-Vorderösterreich"), Schwäbisch-Österreich, and the dominions in Vorarlberg "im Walgäu".)
  • Oberrhein, Schwarzwald und "Schwäbisch-Österreich" als geografische Schwerpunkte, Landeszentrale für Politische Bildung Baden-Württemberg: "Geografisch hatte Vorderösterreich drei Schwerpunkte: einen am Oberrhein und im Schwarzwald – ihm kam ursprünglich die Bezeichnung „Vorderösterreich“ zu –, einen in Schwaben – „Schwäbisch-Österreich“ genannt – und einen weiteren in Vorarlberg." (Geographically Vorderösterreich had three centers: one at the Upper Rhine and in the Black Forest - the original "Vorderösterreich" -, one in Swabia - named "Schwäbisch-Österreich" - and another one in Vorarlberg.)
I sure don't want to start a civil war in Germany!   One branch of my family came to the USA in 1859 and they fought for the Union in the Civil War here.  So I come from a family tradition that seeks to unify not rend.   How do we resolve this?

I think one of the problems is that here on WikiTree we say use what they would.  But the truth is no one has any idea what they would have used.  Often treaties were signed the people they affected found out years later in these time periods.   

So this is a modern concept.  Honestly the family documents I have from this area in this time period do not get this specific.  They did not even think in terms of a country on most of the documents.  All they cared about is who they had to pay.  And what they needed to do to survive.  

So how do we resolve this location question?   I have the url to this thread on the profiles.  So if we pick one it will still lead to the other.  I would opt for the simplest version because that is what I think the people of the time would do.  Most were illiterate.  So enough that we get the idea of the location.  Countries as we think of them just did not exist like that.  And I think the description being used just makes that case.  It was affiliated but not assimilated.
Take Schwäbisch-Österreich. As Helmut wrote, Vorderösterreich had three centers. Schwäbisch-Österreich is more precise as Vorderösterreich.

So you can prevent a Civil war in germany.
+6 votes

Any help?

Name: Ursula Fäsins
Death Age: 83
Event Type: Beerdigung (Burial)
Birth Date: abt 1614
Death Date: 1 Aug 1697
Burial Date: 3 Aug 1697
Burial Place: Mengen, Baden (Baden-Württemberg), Preußen (Germany)
Spouse: Pauli Fäsins
Parish as it Appears: Mengen
Page Number: 419

Source Information

Ancestry.com. Baden, Germany, Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1502-1985 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2016.

by Marion Poole G2G Astronaut (1.3m points)
Thanks Marion!
Actually no help, because Baden-Württemberg never was a part of Prussia. Vorderösterreich is the correct region for that time during the HRE.
Often the locations in Ancestry and Family Search are not correct historically and even sometimes not correct to Germany today.  But the other data seems to match primary records found below.
+6 votes

Here is the death record of Ursula Bürgin 1 Aug 1697 (https://www.archion.de/de/viewer/?no_cache=1&type=churchRegister&uid=229072) parish Mengen (Landeskirchliches Archiv Baden in Karlsruhe).

I uploaded it to Bürgin-326

by Dieter Lewerenz G2G Astronaut (3.1m points)
edited by Dieter Lewerenz

As I read that record, I would translate it as follows: "On 1 August [1697] went peacefully home to her savior Jesus Christ Ursula Beringer, widow of the late burgher Paul Fäsin, and was buried on the 3rd of the same month, aged about 83 years less 2 months."

It would appear that her husband Paul died 31 March 1675 (indexed as Paulus Pfesin at ancestry.com).

Thanks C-H translating it. I had this morning no time to do it because the car of my wife didn't start. I must load the battery.

At http://www.archion.de/p/802722f5b8/ (behind paywall) I also found a baptism 7 Aug 1657 of Maria, daughter of Paulus Fäße and Ursula Bürger (the record reads Bürgerin, but the "in" is just a feminine grammatical ending). At ancestry.com the last name had been transcribed as "Rößer".

And here (http://www.archion.de/p/568c0aa8f4/) is the baptism on 18 February 1655 of Barbara, daughter of Paulus Fäse and Ursula Bürger (this one had been transcribed as "Häse" by ancestry.com). These two records suggest that Ursula's maiden name was Bürger; the rendering of this as "Beringer" in her death record was probably a "sounds like".

C-H your are awesome
Thanks this is all great!
Both of you this is wonderful.  I will update the husband and children today as well!  Fantastic!
So it also sounds like I need to change the LNAB from Burgin to Burgerin?  Burgerin being the feminine form of Burger?
I would change it to Bürger rather than Bürgerin - the "in" is merely a grammatical ending and not part of the name, in my opinion (just as the plural "s" in, say, "the Smiths" is not part of the Smith name). But there may be different opinions on this.
The LNAB was Bürger.

In some German regions women have a -in at the back of their name in colloquial language. But it was never officially a part of the name as in parts of Eastern Europe, where women have a -a at the end.

In North Germany they would have made Bürgersche or Bürgers of the same woman.
Ok I am doing that change in just a minute and I have added all the other info now I think.   Feel free to take a look and let me know if I missed anything!  Very much appreciate all the help!
If you like I can add the above by C-H mentioned sources from archion to the profile of Bürgin-326.
I thought I did add them.  Footnotes 2 and 3 and source bullets 3 and 4.
I believe what Dieter is referring to is the proper description of those sources (along the lines of Landeskirchenarchiv Karlsruhe, Mengen Kirchenbuch, years, p. number, entry number, found at . . . ). Yes, Dieter, if you could do that, I would very much appreciate it - archion has been slow for me today.
Ahhhh... I get it now...  Yes I do not have a subscription.  That would be great!
+4 votes

Death Record Paul Fäsig 31 Mar 1675 parish record Mengen (Mischbuch_1650_-_Okt__1732_Bild197) , Landeskirchliches Archiv Baden in Karlsruhe. Found in http://www.archion.de/p/9130482756/

by Dieter Lewerenz G2G Astronaut (3.1m points)
Death Record of Paul Fäsig, husband of Ursula Fäsig (uploaded on his page).

Den 31. Marty ist Paulus Phesig Bürger zu Mengen, zur Kirche nach Basel gehörig, in Christo entschlafen, und den 2. Aprilis daselbsten begrabn wordn. ...

In english:

Paulus Phesig (Paul Fäsy is the same ) citizen to Mengen (from the parish of Basel) died on 31 Mar 1675 and was buried 2 Apr 1675.

Laura you should changes the death date on his profile.
Laura are you creating the profiles for the two daughters or shall I do that?

I can add then the two mentioned birth records as copy.
Hi Dieter, got kidnapped by my husband to clean out the basement!   I just added Paul's death date to his profile.  And am going to add in the translation.   If you want to create the 2 daughters, be my guest!  I have not looked for sourcing for the 2 sons that came on the profiles I adopted.  I will finish Paul and then have one more bag and one more box to do for my husband.   Cleaning gets in the way of genealogy sometimes!  He looks at me and says they died over 300 years ago... a little more time is not going to cause a problem.   Hard logic to argue with!

I can't tie thes folks to my line so after fixing them will orphan them And but they will be corrected as much as possible.  And more importantly, sourced!   

Dieter you should register on this Sourcerers thread for October and say you sourced these for me.  You will earn the Sourcerers Badge.  I can guarantee that!  I help lead that monthly challenge!   https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1117710/sourcerers-challenge-october-2020?show=1117710#q1117710  Just ANSWER not comment and say you want in.  Also say you did this for me.  You can quote the G2G thread.  You should get credit for all the hard work.
Thanks, done.

I created Maria and Barbara Fäsy, sourced them and orphaned them after sourcing.

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