Comments on Sir Roger de Clifford (d.1284-86) of Tenbury

Question

Hello G2G

Medieval France & England folks, please review this family group and the comments I left on the wife profiles. We have an extra wife profile; and seem to have conflated the two wives, if prior research is correct.  

This is this notional multi-family-group:

Hugh de Gournay =m1 NN [poss. Hawise de Boteller] m2=m1 Roger de Clifford m1= NN [poss. Maud de Courteney] ?m2= Philippe de Dampierre

...which is easiest (for me) to conceive of as being this man's ecosystem:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Clifford,_Roger_de_(d.1285%3F)

Some testy debate and super-useful primary sources here:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/asLgyC8yX2Q

On 30 Oct 2020 Isaac Taylor wrote on Clifford-401:

The wives are garbled and 1 needs merging away, another renaming. Please see my comments https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Clifford,_Roger_de_(d.1285%3F) https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/asLgyC8yX2Q This is complex history; please take the time to read the entire SGM thread and focus exclusively on the original primary source evidence and the secondary professional analyses relying on it, rather than the tertiary ad hominem attacks between 21st century genealogists on that list.

Answer 1

Isaac, your comment says "please see my comments" but I don't see any others. Is this another case where comments have been removed?

Comments

Hello Andrew, thanks for taking a look so promptly.

Given the issues pertain to the identity and profile-management tasks of Sir Roger's 2 wives, I left my comment on their profiles:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lauretania-2

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-277698

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-300414

Broadly speaking, the tasks ahead reduce to:

- Validating identity of 1st wife (Boteller?)

- Validating identity of 2nd wife (Courteney of Loretto?)

- Merging away one of the 3 profiles

- Correctly placing children

- Connecting parents and other spouses

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Ha! I have not promised to work on it, but I was going to look. If RJ knows the story better maybe...

Isaac, when are you going to go for pre-1500 certification? :)

Answer 2

Roger gets a page of small print in Royal Ancestry 2013 - Vol 5 p. 184.  It's moved on a bit from 2004.

Married 1st bef 1242 Maud ____, widow of Hugh de Gournay.  They had one son Roger

Married 2nd at St George d'Esperance, France (a Savoy fief) in June 1273 _____, Countess of Loreto, possibly widow of Conrad of Antioch, Count of Loreto (living 1268).

By an uncertain wife, he had a daughter Alice [no husband named].

Comments

Interesting man genealogically, as his mother was descended from Ethelred the Unready and Queen Emma.  His son founded the northern Cliffords.  About a third of all the "Gateways" are descended from Ethelred and Emma by this route.

Emma (the Conqueror's great-aunt) was the first Norman to wear an English crown, long before Hastings.

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Wikipedia thinks Conrad lived way too long

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_of_Antioch

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Has Richardson explicitly abandoned his prior conviction the 2nd wife is a Courteney?

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His NN widow was alive in 1290 to petition the king:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9334475