Where do I stand as far as my ancestor being a descendent of Charlemagne and a gate way?

+7 votes
461 views
Lawrence-239 is my 9th grandfather. It says on his profile that he has royal ancestry gateways that lead to the King of France and Charlemagne. Can I use a sticker that says I’m descendent of Thomas Lawrence-239 and that I’m a descendent of Charlemagne? Thank you Kersey-456
WikiTree profile: Thomas Lawrence
in The Tree House by Kelly Kersey G2G6 Mach 1 (10.6k points)

Isn't everyone descended from Charlemagne (with a few exceptions for those fortunate kin groups that never intermarried with Europeans) :)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford#:~:text=In%202013%2C%20geneticists%20Peter%20Ralph,%2C%20Drogo%2C%20Pippin%20and%20Hugh. 

As if other races never intermarried/interbed. Some still do it today. Some ethnic groups in some parts of the world still marry first cousins, and no, I don't mean the USA or Europe. After about 6 or so generations people aren't genetically related any more. You only inherit half of each parents' DNA, and 1/4 of each grandparent, and so on. Once you do the math, you will see that anything past 6 generations is basically zero. Anyone alive today who is descended from someone like Charlemagne isn't genetically related to him.
Intermarriage with Europeans has nothing to do with endogamy. Y-DNA and mtDNA show relationship well beyond 6 generations.
Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what the OP means by her original comment, "with a few exceptions for those fortunate kin groups that never intermarried with Europeans."

5 Answers

+4 votes

Descendant sticker

You are a descendant of Thomas Lawrence but not Charlemagne. It states that Thomas was descended from a sister of William, the conqueror. Connection finder shows step 11 is a sister not son or daughter

by Linda Peterson G2G6 Pilot (534k points)
Per cites in Thomas Lawrence's profile, Richardson says he is descended from Alice Normandy (sister of William the Conqueror) and that Alice was descended from Charlemagne.
+6 votes

I believe the answer is basically no.  This line depends on an article published in The Genealogist

  • Greene, David L. "Royal Ancestry of the Ipswich MA and Long Island Lawrence Families." The Genealogist, Vol 10 No. 1, Spring 1989. ISSN: 0197-1468. pp. 3-30.

However, it contains some suppositions which remain unproven and controversial.  Basically, it cannot be said that the John Lawrence who married Elizabeth Bull is a son of William Lawrence and Katherine Beaumont.  So, the supposed royal line breaks here.

by Joe Cochoit G2G6 Pilot (224k points)
Richardson (Royal Ancestry III:548-552) shows a line going back through the Bull line to Alice of Normandy (William the Conqueror's sister).
I stand corrected.
+4 votes

About 40 generations later, 238 possible descendants at 2 per family. 238 = 274,877,906,944.
Little doubt you have some Charlemagne ancestry. 

Mmm...

Just heard my grandson is going to become a father. Should I make that figure 274,877,906,944 + 1 = 274,877,906,945 ?

by Steve Bartlett G2G6 Mach 4 (40.8k points)
But as genealogists the challenge is to find a paper trail :)
+1 vote
There is a lineage with source on Thomas Lawrence's profile that indicates his lineage to Charlemagne. I included the Richardson source in the Comments on that profile around 2019. I became aware of this linage when I worked on my ancestor Marie/Mary (Lawrence) Burnham, who is a daughter of Thomas Lawrence and Joan Antrobus. For many years, Mary/Marie was mistakenly listed as a 'Tuttle' as Joan Atrobus married 2) John Tuttle. I spent a great while working out and separating this Lawrence/Tuttle lineage, then found the TAG article that Joe referred to and purchased the Roberts Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants published in Baltimore by the Genealogical Publishing Company in 2018 when I was at the NEHGS that year.

There is no point in having a sticker as pointed out by others due to the genetic distance, but one can always point to their several times great grandfather, Thomas Lawrence as having a proven line of descent from Charlemagne.

I became even more familiar with this line, separate from Marie (Lawrence) Burnham being my 8th GGM, when I found that her brother, Thomas Lawrence-952 required a much-needed biography overhaul and to connect his children properly. Chase and Joe helped a great deal with reviewing sources for his daughters. Why was this important? His daughter Mary, married a Thomas Walton. This line was obfuscated with an incorrect Waldren line. It had to be revised and properly sourced for Walton because one of Thomas Lawrence's descendants through his daughter Mary (Lawrence) Walton is Franklin Delano Roosevelt. This line is also pointed out in TAG and in Robert's more recent work in 2018. You won't find a Charlemagne sticker on FDRs profile.

So, only bragging rights to friends and family, but more importantly that it is a 'proven' line, just as we like to do for PGM, MCBs, etc.

And Joe is correct. Roughly half of the males who came over on the boats from Wester Europe are likely descended in some way to Charlemagna.
by Carol Baldwin G2G6 Pilot (525k points)
+1 vote
And a final side note. I was in Aachen in 2015 visiting friends in the Munich area and taking side trips for 'in praxis' genealogy. I spoke with a curator of the cathedral and Aachen and we discussed this Charlemagne lineage. She contacted a history professor from a local university, who spoke English (fortunately). He was in the process of tracing descendants of Charlemagne strictly in Western Europe. He had never thought about any descendants of Charlemagne in the United States. I gave him my copy of the TAG article Joe referenced in an earlier post. He was most excited about FDR. Why might that be? He was a history professor and FDR as President and the US Allies were instrumental in winning the war in Germany. Interesting where genealogy can take us!
by Carol Baldwin G2G6 Pilot (525k points)

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