Primary sources for John de Braose (b. c1222) cited by Richardson or Weis? [closed]

Question

Hi,

Is anybody able to check whether John de Braose son of John de Brewes and Margaret ferch Llywelyn is listed in either:-

"Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families" by Douglas Richardson & Kimball G. Everingham; or

"Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700" by Frederick Lewis Weis?

If so, what are the primary sources for him listed there?

Sincere thanks in anticipation.

Answer 1

I think the better work to sight is Richardson's newer one, Royal Ancestry. You can find it in this case easily by looking to John's father, where someone has already given a reference for him.

John appears in Vol. 4 under BREWES  7iii, p.532.

Unfortunately these sources are not wonderful in their citations, giving very little "in line" so that you can see how facts connect to sources, and often relying on non-obvious combinations of secondary sources, visitations etc. This is why many of us double check the discussions (sometimes heated) which occur in public on the SGM newsserver. It is a good thing indeed that Douglas Richardson posts updated ideas and proposals there, and to some extent also sometimes accepts that they need tweaking. In any case he cites:

C. Ch. R. 1 (1903) p.471

Rigg et al. Cal. Plea Rolls of the Exch. of the Jews vol.1 (1905) pp 280, 299; and vol.2 (1971) p.5; and vol.4 (1972) p.9.

Complete Peerage vol.2 (1912) p.307 (under Brewes). This is not a primary source, but you may find that Richardson's work is based on this massive work, which is available online, and it is normally pretty good with giving primary sources.

Cal. IPM vol.3 (1912) pp.240-1. Available on British History Online, although perhaps better to use an exact page from archive.org.

He has a special note concerning the fact that Llewellyn ap Gruffudd was described as a kinsman in 1267-7 which gives a specific source: Edwards, Littere Wallie (1940) p.25.

Paget, Baronage (1957) 90: 1-12 under Braose

Adams, Select cases from Eccl. Courts of Canterbury (1981) pp.138-144

Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I, vol.2 (1997), p.75

Comments

Thanks Andrew.  I was able to locate and cite the Inquisition Post Mortem transcription and have added it to Joe Cochoit's excellent updating of the profile's biography.  I think most of the other references would involve a trip to the library, which isn't an option at the moment, (though I wasn't able to check up on the [mysterious to me at least] "C. Ch. R. I" reference.)

Anyway, I'm super-pleased to have been able to add a transcription of a primary source to the biography on the strength of your answer which earns the star in the teeth of strong competition.

Best regards,

Chris.

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I guess Calendar of the Charter Rolls, vol. 1. Have a look at this handy website: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/rolls.shtml

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Yes, that's the one.  Thanks, I've added that too.

Answer 2

Richardson mentions him only in passing, but the sources on his father's profile page include this SGM discussion that pertains (see the discussion for details):

I have a passing interest in this line, and this has vexed me. The following may be of some interest to you.

Complete Peerage also states under John de Breuse of Glasbury, co. Brecon supposedly son of Margaret, dau of Llewelyn ap Iowerth that

QUOTE
He had disputes about this manor(on the borders of cos. Brecon and Radnor) with Roger de Clifford in 1272, and with John Giffard of Brimpsfield and Maud his wife( which Maud, on the above hypothesis, was his (John de Breuse) half sister, being daugther of Margaret above-named, by her 2nd Husband, Walter de Clifford). John and Maud conceded the manor to him and his heirs male in 1275,
and Rogers claim was settled for 100 marks of silver. (Cria Regis, roll no. 205, mm. 5 d, 6 d, 15; Coram Rege, Mich. 3-4 Edw 1, m. 41, Mich. 4-5 Edw. 1, m. 17 Mich. 5-6 Edw. 1, m. 8)
UNQUOTE

Comments

Many thanks Liz.  I see that Joe has included this information on the profile.  I had a go at finding transcriptions of the various roll entries, without success, but I'm sure what we have is good to be going on with.

Best regards,

Chris.

Answer 3

Are you trying to prove his existence?  I don't think there is much doubt.  Three of the children of John de Braose and Margaret, including John, are mentioned in a contemporary genealogy (MS Cotton Julius D x).

For all things regarding this family, I would start with The De Braose Website.

Comments

Hi Joe, I see that you've provided a sourced biography for John on his profile, for which I'm enormously grateful.  I've plagiarised your opening paragraph on the profile of John's brother Llewellyn.

I note that Diana B Tyson of Nottingham University has worked on the genealogy in MS Cotton Julius D x (https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/epdf/10.1484/J.NMS.3.358), but I'm not up for paying for that.  I guess, once my household's no longer isolating over Covid, I might be able to look up the original at the British Library.  

Best regards,

Chris.

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Chris, academics will often send individual copies of articles, sometimes in unfinished form, to people actually working on a topic.