Moving Queens, Nobility and others from Top Level Categories

Question

I'm going over some suggestions for using top level category: Error 885. There are many suggestions in this category and some projects are dissolved, some need more specification and for locations, sometimes people simply couldn't define a more specific category.

One of the categories pertains to 16th century and for the likes of nobility etc, I would think that the category available would be famous people of the 16th century.

For the England project, would it be preferable to put them into a catch-all that exists such as the 16th century famous people (example), so I can move them off the top level category, or would new sub-categories such as , English 15th Century, 16th Century etc nobility etc be more suitable?

Please feel free to discuss what your preferences. I'm not in Categorization. I'm a Data Doctor and an England Project Member. As a team member for Greater London and Middlesex, London is often a dumping ground. Sometimes people don't know if London was the correct location. And often, it's not even London, England.  I'm trying to clean up a few things as/when possible.

Thanks :)

Comments

Hi Raewyn, can you provide a link or links to the categories you think are a problem please?  Or one of the profiles where a top-level category is being used inappropriately?

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Here's London: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:London%2C_England - London is too broad to be a catch-all as a location. There is also no London City as a category - possibly because areas in the city have undergone a lot of changes in the last several hundred years and it's always absorbing smaller parishes.

There are a bunch of others that aren't necessarily locations, but themes, eras, events etc, but focusing on London and Middlesex, England  primarily at this time.

Edit: If you're wondering where all the locations are, please see Middlesex category - the historic county. Greater London is the modern one but Middlesex is observed as more profiles on Wikitree would have originated from pre-Greater London times. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Middlesex

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Hi Raewyn

The current structure of categories for London, England, the City of London, and Middlesex, Surrey, Kent and Essex, etc is largely down to some work I did a couple of years ago. I'm happy to clarify anything I can. I left the London, England category as a 'to do later' list as it seemed that sorting it out would overlap with a number of other projects and take some discussion. Some categories I don't think need to be there at all - Coffee Houses? - for example.

People may also like to look at the Freespace page for London where I have tried to explain how London was administered over the years.

Do let me know if I can be of any help. Are you going to mention this in the England and Categorization Google Groups?

Chris

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nobility does not equate fame, there were lots of noblemen and noblewomen who were totally obscure, they are simply deemed ''noble'' due to family and land titles mostly.

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nobility does not equate fame . . .

commented by Danielle Liard

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So very true -- any more than the "typical" family black sheep shipped off to the antipodes for diddling every housemaid and dairy maid on the estate was anything like the smash-and-grab guy, the highwayman, or the murderer.

The two classes of "nobles" and "famous" should not be conflated.

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I apologize, too many titles, or recognition of various things, acts, problems, trials, victories and I just went with a couple...if we want to get specific, we can get these categories cleaned up.

Answer 1

Hi Raewyn

I'm happy to look at the 9 profiles managed by the England Project (Wikitree-57) and move them to more relevant categories. Lady Jane Grey certainly wasn't a Protestant Martyr! :)

I agree about "London, England" being a grey area. For the actual old City of London, there is a category for that, with subcategories of parishes. Almost everything else called London but outside of the City of London was originally Middlesex (north of the Thames) or Surrey (south of the Thames) - this is a distinction with which people may be unfamiliar when they add London as a category.

Comments

For some of these odd-balls, would it be better to shift them to the relevant century famous person categories if they're titled?

I've been looking at births or baptisms and dropping people in the category location they were baptised or birth was registered if there is nothing else that can tell me anything else (such as a census). If it just says London, at the moment, I'm leaving as is.

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Just going with what you said, Jo....I guess the trick is trying to find the correct parish. If it's not in existence, requesting that parish, church category is created is a relevant path forward. Parish records, here I come.

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For information to those who were unaware of the distinction, the page for the City of London category is here as it counts as one of the historic English counties (with its tiny wards and parishes as subcategories).

The pages for London, Greater London, Middlesex and Surrey are all found listed on the England categories page.

I was hoping that there might be an "English monarchs" category, but there isn't so I will request it.

(Edit - typo)

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Thanks Jo...that category would be helpful.

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The profiles of various members of royal families all seem to have the London, England category because they were either born, died or married there, so I'm not sure how having an English monarchs category is going to help?

Apart from the fact that none of the 3 profiles I looked at were English monarchs anyway.

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Jo

The City of London was, and still is, actually administered as 'Wards'. Parishes did not have the same significance as they did elsewhere in England. All of the 98 churches that existed within the city are set-up already - although its always possible I missed one or two! See City of London Religious_Institutions

Chris

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Thanks Chris. I'll refer to that for some of those profiles that need the extra 'push' to put them into their right places. In some cases, (many) I'm sure it means I'll have to locate more references. And thank you for the work you did, because I've used some of those categories already. If I have questions regarding a church etc that I can't find, I might pick your brain, if that's okay?

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Raewyn

Of course.

Chris

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If you create an English Monarchs category, you might want to put it under the English Nobility category.

Answer 2

Raewyn, aren't you addressing two separate issues.  Famous people has nothing to do with location.  And just because somebody is titled, are they necessarily famous?  I think the answer is in the area of correcting the London issue.  I, being seventh generation Aussie, was not aware that Middlesex was north of the Thames and Surrey to the south, so I am certainly guilty of 'lumping' folk into London; even to the extent of dropping a county altogether and just doing 'London, England'.  I'll try to study up a bit so that I can avoid giving you more headaches.

Comments

You're right, Kenneth, I am kind of addressing two different issues. The one is more with PP profiles that are typically titled profiles and the other is to do with London general. Jo has gone a way to suggesting something for the titled, in terms of one of the top level category errors, which is 16th century (15th etc) and they're just sitting there waiting for a place to be allocated. The other is London -I'm going to have to go through some of the parish records to find out where they were baptised or died to try and look at where specifically they belong. The less profiles in said top level location category, the better. This extends to all other areas too. Devon, England, Suffolk, England - but generally, I can find through the sources a less general area where they belong. Not always so with London.

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Massive job, Raewyn.  Thank you for tackling it.

Answer 3

For royalty and nobility, you can look at the European Nobility category.  It is a top-level category page and has links to sub-categories.

Comments

Thanks Darlene!

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Shouldn't there be a British Nobility category post-brexit? :)

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Thanks for the smile.

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There already is a British Nobility category, which is a sub-category of European Nobility, here.  We then have sub-categories of it for English nobility, Irish nobility, Scottish nobility, and Welsh nobility, as well as categories for various peerages along Kingdom of the Isles.