can this be changed <ref>First-hand information as remembered by [[{wikiID} | {Name}]], Date {''citation"}."</ref> [closed]

+25 votes
441 views

I was wondering if this message in biographies <ref>First-hand information as remembered by [[{wikiID} | {Name}]], Date {''citation"}."</ref>.........can be changed to....... <ref>Information as gathered by [[{wikiID} | {Name}]], Date {''citation"}."</ref>..........as it would be more accurate especially after two or three generations

closed with the note: Resolved
in Policy and Style by Paul Curran G2G6 Mach 1 (16.2k points)
closed by Julie Ricketts
Paul, It has been suggested many times before that the 'first-hand' message is almost always inaccurate, but Chris wants to stick with it for the time being.

If you can persuade him otherwise, a great whoop of joy would be heard all across USA and UK, people would be looking out of their window, wondering what the noise was!!

Margaret
My take on this is that the person who wrote the profile would see it, realize that it couldn'lt be so and would input the correct information,  Sort of putting a reminder out there.

I doesn't work when a GEDCOm is imported, The importer doesn't look at all his handiwork.

Tom, It doesn't happen on gedcom imports.

The only one of the three main fields (birth, marriage, death) that applies to me is my marriage and birth of my 2 children.  Nearly everything else I add to Wikitree I have no first hand information about, even my birth I rely on what I am told and what it says on a bit of paper.

The  page to add new profiles 'requires' a source to be added, but if no source is added, this is auto generated wording.

''First-hand information as remembered by xyz. Tuesday, December 9, 2014. Replace this citation unless you witnessed the birth or other event''

It doesn't often seem to remind people to enter a proper source, just take a look at some newly created profiles.

Margaret

The wording could be more accurate if said <ref>Information as remembered or gathered by xyz, Thursday, December 11, 2014 "Replace this citation if there is an updated source available"</ref>

Paul, Various different replacement wordings along similar lines have been proposed before.  None of them as yet have met with Chris's approval.

Margaret
CLOSE YOUR EYES CHRIS!!

Margaret, Do you think we have a chance of slipping this one by him, without him noticing. as the wording as it stands when I first joined, intimidated me greatly, into thinking that the source had to be first hand, which would be impossible to do, I now change it to read... Information as gathered by... I feel better with this wording

Paul
"Entered by" would seem to be most accurate for the majority of cases I encounter. This one does not bother me though as whatever it says I immediately remove when creating new profiles when I add a source (I always have at least one source. albeit sometimes imperfect ones). When cleansing (generally adding sources to) other profiles, this text can be removed as well as any other text.

Paul, I wish we could slip it by Chris, but I believe his intervention is required for any change.

This was one of the very first things that totally turned me off about wikitree (the other was the use of married names for women). It is professionally embarrassing to see "first hand knowledge of Jillaine Smith" on any of the profiles I've created. It is almost always inaccurate. I only have first hand knowledge of my own experience. 

I have never understood what it is about that phrase that Chris is so attached to.

This one does not get under my skin that much. I see this and other boilerplate text on the profile put out there to prompt novices, newbies, and the forgetful to enter sources and more information on the newly created profile. I always replace it immediately with a source on profiles I create. I do particularly enjoy the second incomplete sentence when adding a new parent profile "John Doe...". Those three periods just beg and embarress me into adding something more to the profile I just created.
Yikes.  First hand knowledge is not any and all information reported by the person submitting it sans other sources.   It should only be information they have direct knowledge of as a witness (or participant). That's first-hand.  If they are reporting things known to them as family lore, that is second hand.   Any other usage diminishes the reputation of the tree.  Having read a book about my family and having remembered or recorded the information is not first-hand knowledge.   Very frustrated to hear this -- is this still the policy here?
Michael, the auto-text when creating new profiles has subsequently been changed (since the posts above). So new profiles don't get this. That said, MANY profiles from before the change still have this.

I remove them whenever I see them on Open profiles...
Thanks!  I appreciate the clarification.

3 Answers

+9 votes
Paul, On profiles which you create, you are encouraged to provide sources that other people can follow up on.  In the absence of a source, the default wording is applied.

It is not intended to remain, and should be edited as soon as possible, either changing the wording as you suggest, or preferably adding a proper source.  Chris will have no objection to you changing the wording on profiles,  but it is his preferred wording for unsourced profiles.

For plenty of other discussions about this, and Chris's reasonings for keeping it, search G2G for 'first hand information as remembered by'.

Margaret
by Margaret Wilkinson G2G6 Mach 2 (21.0k points)
edited by Margaret Wilkinson
Bummer. No such luck (on the search term instructions you gave, Margaret).

Jillaine, I was on my tablet when I answered the question, haven't yet worked out how to copy and paste!!

A selection of posts, probably plenty more (search term 'first hand information')..

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/12464/could-we-change-first-hand-knowledge-profile-page-creation

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/97766/have-you-seen-the-new-and-improved-form-for-creating-new-person

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/93943/i-thought-default-source-had-been-changed

Margaret

 

 

Thanks, Margaret!
+8 votes

The need to change this wording has been highlighted in another post, this time from someone not initially connected to Wikitree.

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/118548/why-finding-exact-words-on-find-grave-memorials-on-your-site

 ''His sources say that he has first hand information as he remembers it. Really?''

This is how this appears to the world - nonsense and infuriating.

Margaret

by Margaret Wilkinson G2G6 Mach 2 (21.0k points)
+5 votes
I'm afraid I disagree with where much of the conversation is going here.  I've seen a lot of junk personal information on profiles, but I have no doubt that a good deal of personal information is useful and not doubtful.  I certainly know where I lived when (which is transferable to family members.  I know what my father and my mother's father did for a living.  I know a good bit about other, more distant, family members though as things get more distant in time, it's necessary to verify some of them via other sources.  I think it would be foolish to eliminate first hand knowledge, but it would be nice to have guidance on what is trustworthy and what needs further sourcing.  You can look at my own profile which I recently upgraded and I now have 10 items I verified from my own knowledge.  My grandfather Miller has four from my own knowledge.  I will add many others as I upgrade other profiles.  While I might end up sourcing some from private sources, such as a letter written by my mother before she died asking that her sister take their father into their home, I can still, I trust, verify that that is indeed what happened.
by Dave Dardinger G2G6 Pilot (437k points)
Dave, that's perfectly reasonable. What this thread was about was the default wording automatically added when profiles were created.  For most profiles , we DONT have direct personal knowledge. For example, all this ePGN profiles. And basically On any profile of some one who died before I was born.

All that said, Chris finally relented and changed the default text so it's not an issue anymore except for the gazillions profiles created previous to the change.
I agree with Dave, that a lot of the information for my immediate family, is personal to me, and so I left that bit in.

As for the wording.. if you dont like it, edit it or delete it. It is the same for the 'unsourced' template. When I create a profile, I enter name, dates etc. and create it. The I go in and edit it, to add sources, biography etc. AND I delet the 'unsourced' template.

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