What evidence is there for the parents of John Bates?

+8 votes
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WikiTree currently shows that John Bates was the son of Mary Martine, who is shown with a descent going back to Magna Carta baron William de Mowbray.  This lineage for John Bates is NOT recognized by professional genealogists, so I'd like to double-check:

What evidence is there for the parents of John Bates?  What evidence is there for his origin?  Is this pedigree based on the bare supposition that there was a John Bates, son of James and Mary, who was the right age?   It appears that none of the children of John Bates of Virginia were named James or Mary.
WikiTree profile: John Bates
in Genealogy Help by J S G2G6 Mach 9 (94.9k points)

2 Answers

+5 votes
 
Best answer
This source that has been posted on Mary Martines profile states that their son John Bates was buried in 1606, Unfortunately there are no original sources mentioned.

http://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Martine-2
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (429k points)
selected by Darlene Athey-Hill
I notice dates are quite different. Bates-40 (23 May 1598-24 Jan 1667), m. 15 May 1624. John Bate in source (bpt. 17 Nov 1588-6 Mar 1616). Death before Bates-40 marriage or first child with birth date (George 1625).

The Lydd Parish records appeared in: From the Bates Bulletin, Series III, Vol. 1, October1917, Number 1

Please note: I have added another page from the Bates Bulletin--it is the page which appeared before the one cited by John Atkinson: http://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Martine-2

These pages seem to offer no proof that Bates-40 was John and Mary's child. Who were his parents? I would really like to find out...

I removed the imaginary birth info on John Bates' profile.  There is simply no indication of his English origin at this point.  I will detach his parents, leaving a link in a "disputed parents" section at the top of the profile.  Thank you Jeanne for posting the image that shows the burial of John, son of James and Mary.

 

John is shown on the 20 January 1624 Muster (at the age of 24) as a servant of William Piersey having arrived on the Southampton in 1623 .  I changed his date of birth to 1598 uncertain.

Jamestown 1624/5 Muster Records, Virtual Jamestown, Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia (http://www.virtualjamestown.org/Musters/muster24.html

I trust we won't give up on finding just who his parents were!

Are there two Johns here?  We have exact dates for a marriage and the first two kids.  Have we got any sources?

It's a bit unusual to know the date of a wedding but not the bride's maiden name - unless she's a widow.

If those dates are correct, there should be a married John in the Muster, Jan/Feb 1624/5, but there isn't - unless those events happened in England.

Martha McCartney's book has two Johns in the Muster, neither married, but one died in 1629.

For the other one (Southampton passenger), she links him with the "ancient inhabitant" because the age matches, and she links him with a 50-acre patent.  But that's all she's got.  She doesn't mention the wife or kids in the will or the land deals mentioned by Boddie, so she probably thinks that's a different John.

She cites Dorman, what does Dorman say?  Apparently he does mention the will?

Looking at the Change Logs, "son" William is already a merge of at least two different Williams.  The will doesn't mention a William, of course he could have been dead by then, if they had one, but what says they had one?  Is there a source for any kids, apart from the will?

I have a copy of Dorman's Adventures of Purse and Person. 4th Edition, Vol. 1, Part A. Dorman says pretty much what is in Bates-40's profile. Unfortunately it starts with him and goes forward. Nothing about his parents. About the will, "He married Elizabeth ____, named with his four children in his will. 2 Sept. 1666-24 Jan. 1667/8." 

A footnote says he may have been married twice, the married daughters (Anne and Alse) being by the first wife and sons George and John by Elizabeth."Such a case would eliminate problems of chronology which otherwise appear to exist."

Pages 206-214, ends with "28. John-5 Bates (Isaac-4, John-3, George-2, John-1 who is Bates-40 in WikiTree.

 

He came from England on the Southampton as a servant of Piersey with two of Piersey's children, so there is a good chance he is from England? Just not of the Bates/Martine parentage?
+1 vote
All Saints Churchyard, Lydd. Mildred Ward born ??? died 1577,John Bates born???

died Mar 1 1580,  son James Bates Sr born 1562 died March 2 1614, son of John

Bates and Mildred Ward.

U. S. & International marriage records 1560-1900 , John Bates marries Mildred

Ward 1546.
by Wayne Morgan G2G6 Pilot (914k points)

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