multi sex stickers

Question

Not sure who can help and I understand that this could be senstive to some people but as transgender, lesbians, gay and people who are unsure of their sexuality would it be possible to have some stickers for this category and keeping up with the times of recent census records

Comments

Steph, can you clarify the request? Are you proposing a new sticker, modification of a sticker [or set of stickers], or is this about categorization?

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Maybe the box could just be changed to birth gender, then any changes or choice to be known as something different could be stated in bio.

Answer 1

You mean gender? This would need some definition for use, would it not? Specifics would need to be outlined, etc. But I just don't get why a sticker would be a good addition.

Answer 2

I disagree because stickers seem to be starting to take on a life of their own here.  I see it as too much of a good thing already and wouldn't like to see even more expansion of the uses of stickers.

I think it would be far better if the data item for gender were changed to allow for better identification, more in keeping with needs of ALL persons, instead of forcing a choice between male and female, putting up warnings if you try to save a record with neither of those selections, and further slapping an error flag on the profile if you override the recommendation to select a gender.

Comments

So add to the drop down of gender so people can choose instead of stickers yes

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I believe that was suggested as an "improvement" a while ago, Steph.  I don't know whether it has been accepted by the team as something they plan to do, or where it sits on their to-do list, though.

EDITED TO ADD - this is probably more complex a change than it appears on the surface because the gender field is used in DNA tracing algorithms.  We probably need to leave the gender field alone but change its label to DNA gender (or something else appropriate) and add a new field for "current gender" (or something else appropriate) in order to provide an adequate solution.

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Sex is not gender. One is born one of three sexes - which already is not recognised.  One's gender is how you identify, and has nothing to do with dna and should not be used so.  The dna identifier should not be labelled gender.

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To follow up on Gaile's comment, the request for an "other" gender option is recorded in the improvements database from two years ago at this link, with low priority. It would be good if this request and some of the other items at the same link could be moved up the priority order.

As an interim measure while awaiting improvements, I believe that the gender field can be left blank, even though there may be warning messages. In order to add DNA information, the field can temporarily be set non-blank and then reverted to blank afterwards. (At least, this was the position several months ago; I don't know if there have been recent changes.)

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Hi Melanie, I agree with what you say except I think there are only two sexes.  If a human has a Y chromosome, he is male.  If not, she is female in my old fashioned way of thinking.  There couldn't be anything more apples and oranges. 

However, I agree that the label gender on the edit page needs to be changed to sex for use with the DNA research.

There may be a place for gender preference as well, but that would require editing the edit page format which would take a lot of work.  Since gender preference is a relatively new phenomenon, perhaps it could be added to the biographies of those individuals who choose to express themselves.  I don't think anyone but the actual trans person should be able to put that in their profile.  Perhaps as with DNA tests, it could be restricted to those who are profiled.  

In fact, maybe gender preference could be added to the DNA test page to express other opinions by the actual person themselves.  https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:DNATests  

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Kitty -- there are three sexes.  Male - Y chromosome.  Female - X chromosome.  Intersex (previously known as Hermaphrodites) - neither male, nor female, with atypical chromosomes.  Intersex persons are born that way, unlike Trans folk who feel they were born in the wrong body and  transition (either fully, or partially).

Answer 3

I don't think so.  Birth records register a child as male or female.  Whether they go one way or the other as adults is a matter for their bio.  I would also be leery of adding any such sticker to a profile, stickers draw attention to a particular fact.  Considering that there are people out there who believe homosexuality and transgenders are 'against god's will' or some such strange belief, this would be an invitation to trolls to come and do damage to our tree.

As for hermaphrodites (don't know why they try to change the name), they are few and far between and still get recorded as either male or female at birth, the distinction is not obvious for most of them.  Only DNA analysis or an in-depth medical exam reveals the true state of affairs, seldom done.

The other point is that transgenders, whether fully medically changed or not, are a fairly modern thing, so likely they would still be living.  Private profiles then.  Historic people who went this way without medical intervention aren't that well known about for the most part.

Leave well enough alone on the gender at birth box, maybe add an indeterminate for those children who died at birth and whose gender never got recorded.

Comments

As for hermaphrodites (don't know why they try to change the name)

answered by Danielle Liard G

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Because people are not plants, and because to use such a term can be seen as stigmatising the person.

Currently in biology, a hermaphrodite is defined as an organism that has the ability to produce both male and female gametes.

The Intersex Society of North America has stated that hermaphrodites should not be confused with intersex people, and that using "hermaphrodite" to refer to intersex individuals is considered to be stigmatizing and misleading.

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To deny intersex as a third sex -- not gender -- is to deny people a fundamental right.  It should not matter how few the numbers are.  What should matter is correctly classifying, if the person themself has classified as such.  (Many still, due to the discrimination, do not "come out" as intersex.  Many still have forced reassignment surgery when infants, without the opportunity for informed consent.  Parental choice is not the answer.  Medical intervention should only be if there is a true medical danger to the life of the person.)

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 gender at birth box, maybe add an indeterminate for those children who died at birth and whose gender never got recorded

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Sex is not gender.  Gender is not sex.   It may once have been an interchangeable term without a difference,  but that is no longer the case.  One is born physically male, or physically female, or physically intersex (male and female/female and male).  This is not gender.  Gender is how one perceives oneself.   For many, there is no difference between their sex and their gender, but to deny the difference to those who perceive it, is to deny a fundamental right.

That there are few recorded instances of "provable" female-born males, or male-born females, or born intersex, doesn't mean they didn't exist.  There are many recorded cases of someone and their "best friend" of the same sex, living together "almost as a married couple would".  There are situations that would have had  the people involved either locked up as criminals, or locked away as insane; or even worse, executed/killed without benefit of trial.  There are likely hundreds, or thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of cases where a child born intersex was one of the millions "exposed" and left to die.  We will never likely know just how many who did not fit the "norm" existed, because nobody was willing to expose their private "shame" birthing such a child.  These things were hidden away.

I disagree with a sticker for such, and there are good reasons given as to why it should not be a thing.  But I would like there to be less questioning of those who are and were "different", and less correction of the non-selection of male or female on profiles that do not have the sex selected on the so-called "historical" profiles.  In 50 years, we will be those "historical" profiles.

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hey Mel, I agree we should have an indeterminate option on the box for their sex.  Lots of kids born and died same day don't have it recorded either way.  The program insists on us making a choice for them regardless.

As far as the terminology sex versus gender, what you are defining there is a fairly modern view on gender.  The term gender translates in French as genre, and the relevant dictionnary definition for it goes basically ''grammar: property that nouns have to represent the sexes and in certain languages the absence of sex.  Masculine, Feminine and Neutral,''  (He, She, It in English, It doesn't exist in French)  The same dictionary gives the definition of sexe as ''particular conformation of living beings, appropriate to their role in procreation.''  (My translations)

Homosexuality was a punishable offense in many societies and eras, still is in some countries.  I can think of one famous author right off the bat who ran into such difficulties (Oscar Wilde).  

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Yeah, I know the terminology is relatively new.  

When I was growing up there was no difference between the words sex and gender, and both were used inter-changeably.  As I grew older the word "sex" was something to snicker at behind one's hand, or behind the toilet block at school, because it was something one did, not what one was.  (An attitude at which I poked fun on more than one census form as an adult.)

I am also very aware that homosexuality, even when not given any physical expression, is still punishable in many jurisdictions.

I'm not sure there will ever be an answer that "satisfies" everyone, or even most, but if one little voice speaking out to say "but . . . " will show the disenfranchised that they are recognised, that they are not ignored, that their feelings do matter, then I will be that lonely little voice.  (I have a friend who lived their entire life as female, because they were told that's what they were, only to "come out" to a very few people as intersex towards the end of their life.  They aren't just another statistic to me.  And intersex is a very real thing.)

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yes, but still fairly rare.  I have friends in LGBT community, each person is different, never came across anyone who was in the case of your friend.

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I think the rarity is why not many people know about, or understand, intersex.  And, yes, my LGBTQI friends and rellies are all as different  from each other as a rose is different from a cane toad.  

Whatever the name given to the field, there should not be an error generated when none is selected.  It would be better if there were three fields, instead of the two existing ones, so if none of the three is selected, there would be the current "did you mean to not select?" type message.

I had another friend, many years ago, who would cry on my shoulder after he'd had a few too many to drink.  He had hidden his real self from the word, and his mother, for decades.  He had "tried to change" how he felt.  He had tried to please his Mum by dating women, only to have each attempted relationship fail rather  dramatically.  He had "confessed" his "sin", but could not reconcile the confession and absolution with knowing that he was going to "sin" again, so he fell away from his church, and hurt his mother in the process - and  himself by knowing he had hurt, and was hurting, her.  He went to his grave with all that unresolved.  I doubt very much if  he would want a sticker on a profile for his life telling the world what he had been unable to tell it himself.

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Melanie, I think you and I were posting at the same time, and I don't think we disagree.  A third choice (or set of choices) would work, I think.

Answer 4

My guess is that about 95% of WT users are happy with choosing male or female for their gender, and would not like to see a more complicated choice.  It is already possible for a WT member to choose not to state their gender.  I see it all the time.

So if some members want additional options, including stating a "DNA gender" in addition to their "chosen gender," I'd just hope that all that could be incorporated into a third choice on the gender selection drop-down menu, and not perplex all those people who just expect to state whether they are male or female.

Comments

Then they can get over their confusion and state male, female, or other twice. Especially from a DNA standpoint, nothing would be lost by being inclusive and in fact, we'd gain the trust and knowledge of people who may otherwise pass up sharing their tree because there's no way for them to easily and accurately say something like, "My name is Bettina Smith. My son got his Y chromosome from me and we can prove descendancy from Jebediah Smith born 1799. That line passes through me because I was assigned male at birth and am now a woman."

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What about providing the option I suggested was not inclusive?  Bettina could select female for "chosen gender" and male for "DNA gender."  Maybe I should have said a third section on the gender menu rather than third choice.  It could incorporate other choices as well, as mentioned in this old thread:  https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1027647/programming-change-reconsidering-gender  

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Sorry, completely misread it as one drop down with "other" as a catch-all. Thanks for clarifying that!

Answer 5

Before anything else is decided, the Team will have to decide how they cope with transgender persons at all. There is no official policy about that, and that has to be done first.

Comments

There is a partial policy at this link. For a person without children, it says that "the profile can be set so that no gender is shown".

As I mentioned above, several potential changes have been listed in the Trello improvements database. WikiTree would become more inclusive and welcoming for LGBTQI people if at least some of these were implemented.