Churches, hospitals etc. are suddenly acceptable in location fields?

Question

I just saw this thread about (marriage) location field style. Now I have a different question: I learned that Churches, hospitals and other stuff that is maybe more exact than only a town is to be written in the biography, and that the location fields should have the "town, district, country" style. In the linked thread it is said that the England Project accepts churches in the marriage locations. Shouldn't that be standardized within the whole of WikiTree?

Comments

It is quite common in Quaker profiles to see, for example, a marriage location as Miami Monthly Meeting, Warren, Ohio, United States. Is this convention accepted for the marriage place field? Asking for the Quakers Project as many Quaker profiles have the marriage places entered in this manner.

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Thank you for asking, T.  I have also seen MMs listed as locations on Quaker profiles, and wondered if that was appropriate.

P.S.  Jelena, I wonder if you would add a Quakers sticker?

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I don't have any Quakers in my profiles, I only saw the thread and thought "??".

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It has always been stated, that I have seen, that Hospitals, churches, etc were not supposed to be in the location fields.  Those are supposed to be used for Place names.  Help Page for Location Fields does 'not' state that hospitals, churches, etc should not be in there, but it is also stating the the 'place names' should be entered with everything spelled out for the city, county, state and country (country being allowed to be abbreviated when acceptable, ie USA). 

Birth place on a birth certificate or document does not list the hospital normally, does it?  It lists the town where the hospital is located.  Same with the death.

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I also think a church or meeting in a birth or death date is incorrect. Most of the times, people were not actually born, or died, in the church or at the meeting. The event was registered there, but it's a bit different. The only field where they might be remotely appropriate (IMO) is the marriage location.

Answer 1

I clarified Help:Location_Fields by adding this line: "Do not include a street address number, building name, church, hospital, etc., in the location field. Include that in the biography instead."

This has always been my understanding of our style rule, but it wasn't clearly spelled out.

This doesn't mean that all the existing occurrences need to be changed. This is just the preferred style. It's better for matching.

Comments

Thanks Chris

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Thank you, Chris!

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Another example: Anne Boleyn died at the Tower of London - which is not a 'place', it's the name of a building. But it would be very strange to have it removed from the death location field. A one size fits all 'rule' is not always necessarily a good solution - guidance and flexibility are good things (particularly for those of us who are comfortable in a world of shades of grey) while 'rules' tend to be looked at as rather black and white. Perhaps adding the word 'generally' to the beginning of the sentence would provide sufficient guidance while allowing appropriate flexibility.

Answer 2

The England Project's Profile Standards do indeed permit the use of a church name in the location field, although it is certainly not required. For many locations, it would not add a lot of value. The vast majority of English profiles do not include it.

But in large cities, such as London or Manchester, identifying a more precise location by including the church name may be useful.

Comments

Given that, I then believe the use of Monthly Meeting names in location fields of Quaker profiles to be appropriate. In many cases, the meeting name is the name by which a location was and often still is known.

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Nic and T.,

I edited Help:Location_Fields by adding this line: "Do not include a street address number, building name, church, hospital, etc., in the location field. Include that in the biography instead."

That's been my understanding of our current rule, but it wasn't spelled out. I don't think marriage locations would be an exception. If we want to make that exception, or change the entire rule to allow churches, Quaker meeting names, someone should propose it and we'll discuss it more carefully.

Thanks,

Chris

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In England, the basic unit of administration prior to the mid 1800s was the eccelesiatical parish. People had a parish of settlement. It was important; your parish was responsible for you..If you became destitute and in need of help, you could be removed back to that parish. Unsurprisingly  many records, not just baptisms,  marriages and burials are located under parish names.

Sometimes these parish names included the word church or minster or abbey or priory. This was the case in the profile mentioned in the post that started this discussion. St Katherine Cree or  Creechurch,  called by this latter name in a description cited on the family search wiki https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/St_Katherine_Cree,_London_Genealogy

It is far more useful that a John Smith is recorded as marrying in Holy Trinity, Dorchester or St Margaret Fish Street, City of London than the generic Dorchester or even more generic London.

 In the period prior to 1837, we rarely know with certainty  where people were born or died  because our records are mostly ecclesiatical and therefore record baptisms and burials rather than births and deaths. Marriage places within the Church of England  are certain. And until 1837, very few marriages outside the Church of England were legal (1753-1837, Quaker and Jewish marriages were the only exception)

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Thanks for that explanation, Helen. Maybe it should say "...unless it can be considered an administrative division, such as an English parish."

???

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Helen, even post 1837 we don't always know for certain, as what is recorded is the district where the event was registered, which is not necessarily the place where the event actually occurred.  This is especially true if the nearest Registration District is in a totally different county.

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That depends which source you are using. Some original sources are very detailed, that's why I always use an image of the original document, not a transcript.

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Hi Chris,

Thanks for updating the Help page, that makes things a lot clearer.

I think that the additional wording you have added is fine as it is, because it does not restrict the use of administrative divisions such as parishes or Quaker monthly meetings (even though they usually have the same name as the church or meeting house ie the building). As Helen and others have mentioned, it is really the parish (or monthly meeting) that is useful to define the location. Not the specific church or meeting house in which the marriage occurred, which can be covered in the bio.

The updated wording still gives projects the flexibility to suggest appropriate administrative divisions to include in a location (such as parish or monthly meeting), without contradicting the Wikitree Styles and Standards.

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Thank you for that suggestion Chris. I think it would make things clearer. Sometimes though even the Street name is important. In London and some of the other cities, two or more parishes have the same dedication. They are distinguished by their street name see https://www.british-history.ac.uk/london-record-soc/vol32/pp2-3

(@ Melanie I agree that the registration district needs to be used with caution. The registration district covering the village wherev many of my family lived encompasses parishes  in Leicestershire, Northamptonshire and Warwickshire. But the indexes, though extremely useful aren't really  original records. The actual certificate or a certified copy  includes the place of marriage or death..eg https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/b/be/Cleaton-14.png.

 I think there is an argument for putting the exact place  in the location field. It's not strictly adhered to in any case, particularly when the address happens to be a castle or stately home e.g.. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl%C3%BCcksburg-1 On my home computer, George Cleaton's death place is Workhouse Infirmary, All Saints,  Birmingham . It's accurate and immediately tells you something about his life. At the moment writing that would be against policy. ) 

Answer 3

It is appropriate for marriages, in most cases marriages are held at a church or other religious building.

Particularly in places with more than one church it identifies exactly where the event took place and may be helpful in finding baptisms or other events for the same family in the same area.

Births and deaths do not happen-at least usually-in a church or other religious building, and baptisms and burials are not included in location or event fields.

Comments

As I said in my initial statement, I learned that the church where a couple was married also belongs only in the biography.

Answer 4

I just checked and word meeting is used 2000 times in location field. 

Variation	Birth	Death	Marriage	Total
meeting	280	165	1513	1958

You can see them here 

https://wikitree.sdms.si/default.htm?report=srch1&Query=birthlocation%3Dmeeting

https://wikitree.sdms.si/default.htm?report=srch1&Query=deathlocation%3Dmeeting

https://wikitree.sdms.si/default.htm?report=srch1&Query=marriagelocation%3Dmeeting

I can add Meeting as a forbidden word in location for suggestions 601, 631 and 661. That would enable the project to get all meeting locations and correct them.

Comments

'Meeting' should not become a forbidden word, as it is part of a Quaker administrative designation.

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Ros is right, please do not do this.

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No problem. It was just a thought, since it is not a location.