Change certain/uncertain radio buttons to sourced/unsourced?

Question

Or maybe supported/unsupported, evidence/no evidence?

I realize that there are times that I should be clicking that "certain" button, say when I have seen an image of a contemporary handwritten record, or even when I find information in a published transcript of Massachusetts Vital Records.

But as a scientist-type, I think, "Well, I can't be absolutely certain of this information," and I don't click the button. I wonder how many other people are doing the same thing.

Would a change help, or would it just make WikiTree that much less comprehensible to people who are not scientists or historians?

Comments

I'm also not wild about "certain," because we can never be truly certain about much of anything.

However, "unsourced" does not mean the same thing as "uncertain." I see lack of sources as a different situation from lack of certainty.

Often when I identify a date as uncertain or approximate, I had a source (or sources) to support that approximate date. That's very different from the situation with a profile that has no sources for its dates.

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I wouldn't change them but add them. So that an uncertain could be sourced, as Ellen mentioned.

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Yes, I make a lot of use of the uncertain button for estimated dates. Maybe it's just "certain" that needs a makeover.

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I'm also not big on clicking the "Certain" button.  I have seen it misused a lot.  For example, "I saw this date on 'Bob Johnson's Family Tree' at ancestry.com, so I'm CERTAIN it's correct."  Not something I'd consider even vaguely close to certain.

Another small issue I have with this; if a radio button has been clicked, there's no way to just "unclick" it.  You can only change it to Uncertain, or one of the other choices.

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I like having the option of estimated because sometimes even sources I trust will give only a month and year or just a year.  To me, that means my answer should be "estimated" even though I'm as "certain" as I'm likely to be.  

My experience has been that the buttons/choices are just not widely used.  My guess is that most (maybe all) gedcom uploads don't have any data for this field, so it's left blank until someone else comes along to edit the profile.

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"Another small issue I have with this; if a radio button has been clicked, there's no way to just "unclick" it.  You can only change it to Uncertain, or one of the other choices." Hear hear, why should options be different before a button is clicked than they are after? Are we encouraged to make selections of this type for all entries?

Answer 1

I tend to use "uncertain" under two conditions - one is if I'm using {{DateGuess}}. In that case, your proposed alternatives would also work.  The other is when I have conflicting evidence, especially if there's a big difference. For example, if I have data from 4 consecutive census, where the age varies wildly from census to census (and I'm certain it's the same person), I'll pick on (usually from the earliest census, unless I have reason to believe a different one is more likely), and I'll mark it as uncertain, and put a note that it could be anywhere within a range. In that case, I have sources, but the date is still uncertain.

Generally when I'm creating a new profile, I don't click on either option. Though once you've selected one, you can't change it to nothing.

Comments

...and of course, now in 2018 (three years later), you'll be using {{Estimated Date}}, rather than {{DateGuess}}, which has been retired. 

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oh poo.... i love "DateGuess"...

Answer 2

I do not believe that a change is needed or even a good idea in this case. The choice is a three way choice and we have an unsourced template already so it would be replacing one item with another that is already in use. An example is using Census records to give a birth date, the census is always marked as estimated for the birth date but it is a source so you could be uncertain but still have a source and evidence to support your dates and locations.

Comments

I agree with Dale.  I thought if everyone doesn't look at the actual census and glean tidbits from the census, you may not know :

1).  The name of the census taker is at the top of each of the original census along with the                                

2)city,                                                                                                                                        4)post office                                                                                                                                    5) Year and date the census was taken in their handwriting.  

So the data such as the age of a person is based on what the census taker heard

I have looked at the censuses  of 1910, 1920, 1930 1940  for my parents (where I am "certain" of their DOB)  and I have seen discrepancies based on the census taker.  The census data that comes up on familysearch.org is taken from ancestry.com, as it doesn't show the original census.  I know no one here likes ancestry.com except me, but it is useful in some things.

thank you ,    Mary Richardson

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Mary

Not all of the information on familysearch.org is from Ancestry I do not remember which ones are not Ancestry but I do know that the 1940 census was done by familysearch.org volunteers like myself and is available for viewing the original document without going to another site.  There are a lot more than that one and thanks to the volunteers there more is being added everyday. The advantage to familysearch is that it is free and if an image is available they will tell you where to go to find it. I guess you do not feel that free information is worth even looking at but not all of us like Ancestry trying to make us pay for what should be public information.

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I agree with Dale.  Just because you have a source doesn't make the information certain.  The source you got it from may have estimated or may just have been wrong.

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Dale, Do not get me wrong, of course I always try form records on familysearch.org, if I can find them.

The volunteering  to add the records sounds like a good idea.  Do you know how to get me lined up to volunteer some time/effort to add to more census information such as you mentioned for Family Search.org.  Is there a way to have the original census on there also?

I really glean tidbits occasionally from the actual record, such as the place where the census was taken, the date it was done, the occupation of whomever I am searching, sometimes other data.

I am currently working on the Defenders of the Alamo who were all killed there       (range 1797 to  March 6, 1836).   I try my Texas sources first, then FamilySearch, then ancestry.com.

ideas?

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Mary when you go to familysearch.org on the top right of the screen there is a "Volunteer" button, push that and they will sign you up and give you a list of current projects that you could voulnteer for. As for the actual record imiages, they have a view the document section for a lot, not all, of the records. If you lclick that link it will show you the document or take you to the website that has the rights for that document and allow you to see the imiage if they have the rights for it or connect you to the holder of the imiage rights so that you can decide if you want to continue.  They partner with Ancestry, Fold3, Find-A-Grave and others.

Answer 3

What about making "uncertain" an on/off radio button so we don't have to click "certain" to get rid of it?

Comments

I leave it unmarked when I have no information to support a date that I enter (and ALWAYS discuss it in the biography).  I have been using uncertain for cases where I have sources that do not have a definite date.

I am working on a lot of people who died in the Holocaust and my source documents are, for the most part, pages of testimony given after the War.  These typicall include a record, which I believe is accurate, of the date a person arrived at a death camp.  These documents also typically include a death date of between the arrival date and 1945, representing the end of World War II.  I use the arrival date as the death date and mark it uncertain - it is pretty sure that they died within a few days of their arrival - and I do include a more expansive statement about it in the bio itself.

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The third choice is not to click any button but refer to your choices like Gaile does. I still fail to see why a change is needed or even a good Idea.

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Dale, I leave it unmarked unless I am making an estimate. In that case, I click the uncertain button and explain how I estimated the date in the bio.

If I see an image of a census page giving a month and year of birth, I would change an estimate and enter the month and year. However, I would not feel ready to click the certain button based on a census.

In that case, I'd like an on/off radio button.

The other reason is that we collaborate on profiles. Your method makes sense, but someone else may come along, see the button, and use it.

I see an on/off version as more forgiving.