discrepancies on Edward Fuller

+8 votes
895 views

On NaN undefined NaN Darlisa Black wrote on Fuller-13:

I have been reading papers about this family all day until my eyes are buggy, and see there are some interesting conflicts on details pre Mayflower... I was reading some of "The Fuller family in England and America" [https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/29481/images/dvm_GenMono008330-00010-1?usePUB=true&_phsrc=mUS1&usePUBJs=true&pId=18] which I suspect is very outdated with more modern research. In the book it is claimed in detail that the father of Edward and Samuel of the Mayflower fame was Nicholas Fuller. Here I see it is said to be Robert Fuller. Does anyone have better clarification? and of course there is the perpetual back and forth confusion between the Matthew Fullers, and the Samuel Fullers... I see there is a Matthew Fuller born in 1803 who is actually son of John Fuller, Edward's brother, but that Edward's son Matthew was more likely born around 1605 at a guesstimate. There is also a Matthew Fuller born in 1594 or 96 in England, if I can find that one again! And then to confuse things more for many readers, Dr. Samuel Fuller , Edwards brother, took care of Edward's son Samuel after his father died, and taught him medicine. Edward's son Matthew named a son Samuel, as did his brother Samuel.

WikiTree profile: Edward Fuller
in Genealogy Help by Darlisa Black G2G3 (3.5k points)
See Caleb Johnson’s Mayflowerhistory.com for the sketch on Edward Fuller. Caleb is one of the premier Mayflower genealogists/historians.

See also the Great Migration sketch on Edward Fuller, where Anderson states the evidence that connects Edward to Robert is not as strong as would be desirable.

See also The American Genealogist (TAG), vol 61, p 194.
Thanks for the tips...  I am always either hyper focused to the extreme, or jumping around and so it helps to have some direction.  Apparently Edward Fuller and Mary Chilton are my direct line grandparents many times removed, which has sucked me in to the search,
I do have another question re: Mayflower descendants.  Are you considered descended only if it is a direct line so they are grandparents, or if there is a slight jog and they are aunt or uncle also?
If you want to be a member of the mayflower society you do have to have a direct descent.  I don"t have a proven line. well over on ancestry trees with no sources I do (LOL) . I have "cousins" that do and that's the best I can do.
righto, well I am apparently directly descended from both Edward Fuller and Mary/ James Chilton, so that counts!  but indirectly from nearly every other passenger that has descendants ❤️

4 Answers

+7 votes
 
Best answer
i have the silver book of Edward Fuller volume 4 this was published by the general society of mayflower descendants in 2006 it was the latest edition i could get about 2 years ago, all the evidence  points to the father of Edward Fuller,  as being Robert Fuller as listed here.  If you do have a descent from Edward Fuller,  it is a good investment in buying this book.
by anonymous G2G6 Mach 9 (97.0k points)
selected by Bobbie Hall
Thank you.  I actually just ordered that book yesterday, and saving up for the Chilton edition next!  Looking forward to having it in hand... and I found all the Mayflower passenger Bio's here to be so remarkably well organized. I need to learn better skills in that sort of clean up and organization.
Be aware that the Silver Book devoted to the Fullers, which as noted is Vol. 4, is currently undergoing revision.  The DNA-based research that has been in process for some time is going to have a significant impact on the revision (see my answer, below, to the original post).  Just how significant cannot yet be said, as there are competing theories about the origins of Capt. Matthew Fuller; whether the latest DNA analysis can shed full light on his true parentage remains to be seen.  Stay tuned.
Thanks much Christopher- I am anxiously waiting for the results to be released so that I can validate whatever turns out to be the lineage, as I too ( I thought I was ) am a Mayflower descendent by Edward Fuller through to Captain Matthew Fuller to Elizabeth Fuller Rowley/Moses Rowley. I  now have to probably retract my lineage question " Is anyone here from the Edward Fuller line" to Is anyone here from the Matthew Fuller line ( and which one those dna genetics turn out to verify.

judith Lavezzi

The first of two articles on the Y-DNA question came out in the last issue of the Mayflower Descendant.  However, there is still a shoe left to drop.  The first article made it clear that Y-DNA results prove that Matthew was _not_ a son of Edward Fuller.  It hinted at a nonetheless possible retained Mayflower link... depending on the identity of Edward's wife, which has long been a mystery.  Should it be the case, and provable, that she was a Fuller widow before she married Edward, one can imagine how this could play out.  However, the proof could be a complex matter, requiring further DNA results (since no Norfolk first-marriage record has to date been found for Edward's wife).  So personally I'm not holding my breath.  The second article, which will presumably give a "status report" on this hypothetical connection, will certainly be interesting... but personally, I'll be a bit surprised if it's conclusive.

+5 votes

The Redenhall register is nice and easy to read and starts in 1558. A ptrimary source is always much better than using a book.

On this page you have the baptism of Margaret Fuller daughter of Nicholas. Everything should always be checked against the register image if there is one, sometimes the transcription doesn't have a detail that is in the register.

Image for Margaret's baptism here  I hope for some reason the link is taking you to another page but it is on page 5 of the register
 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/1504521954:61045?tid=&pid=&queryId=2c1f0c1d681dba0219f02ab0e8fd9bed&_phsrc=ZHP15141&_phstart=successSource

J
Ann

by Ann Browning G2G6 Mach 7 (76.8k points)
edited by Ann Browning
Page 15 there is an entry for Edward Fullr son of Robert Fuller, there may be more than one Edward Fuller of course but there was one who was the son of RobertANN
I'm confused. What does Margaret d/o Nicholas have to do with Edward Fuller?

In addition, the pages aren't numbered. A year would help us find the references.
I'm suggesting that the parish register be gone through carfully as the information in some books is not reliable. This is in order to establish the correct relationships. There are Fullers with the same christian names living at the same time in Redenhall, the information in the parish register which is not always transcribed can help distinguish them from each other. I went through the register yesterday and the only Matthew I can find is not son of Edward. I believe what is needed is to identify Edward and also to identify Matthew's parents and why he would be travelling with someone not a relation. I've looked at various Fuller wills and not found anything yet, there are others that need looking at but they require a trip to a FHC as they are locked on Family Search.

By all means if there is information in a book use it as a guide but as there is a nice clear parish register check anything against the register and use that as your source. For instance in the transcriptions on Ancestry the occupation butcher isn't mentioned but it is in the parish register. I'm still trying to work out if there are two Roberts, one a butcher and another who dosn't have an occupation against his name. I suspect there are two Roberts and the occupation of butcher is being used to distinguish one from the other. If I remember rightly there are two John's one distinguish from the other by being 'the elder'. These small details get left out of some transcriptions on Ancestry and Family Search. Find my Past is better and does often include them however Norfolk records are better on Ancestry.

Regards,

Ann

Regards,

Ann
thank you - this is most concerning to me that we presume because of a name, not knowing if that person is the actual same person or not. In our desire to have another generation to put into a record, we can so easily misattribute.
Thank you Ann for the clarification. Of course we should be checking the actual registers.  Redenhall really is easy to read.
SO glad, Ann, to see someone else finally point out the potential significance of the designation (and lack thereof) of "butcher" in those records.  I have long wondered why on earth none of the established experts ever seem to mention even the possibility of there being two different Roberts.  If there's some reason why the experts never bring it up, they're awfully quiet about it – at least in any of the literature I've found.
Well it is an important detail that should be included. I know some parish registers are horrid but Redebhall’s is lovely to read. Transcriptions on ancestry are quite often dreadful and also the same applies to Family Search. With complicated families like the Fullers it is essential to check wills and parish registers for these details that don’t get transcribed.

Ann
Right, I’ll have a go at some Fuller wills, sometimes there is something in a full transcription that gives a clue. John best to start with?

Ann
That would seem quite reasonable.

Obviously a second line of inquiry could be checking to see whether there are wills of two contemporary Robert Fullers, naming offspring associated with each in the baptismal records....

There’s this one

https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/fuller-robert-of-redenhall-2

One in Flordon, 11 miles away in 1620

Both are Archdeaconry of Norfolk wills so locked. I’ll see if someone can get them for me.

Ann

There are mistakes m the ancestry l believe

Will of Robert Fuller proved in 1550

https://nrocatalogue.norfolk.gov.uk/index.php/fuller-robert-of-redenhall

Images here

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS55-HQJL-D?i=342&cat=278818

This is his profile I believe, not that there is much on it of any use

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Fuller-1314 it might not be him though but I can’t find anyone close.

Ann

+4 votes

Per Caleb Johnson's Mayflower History (and http://mayflowerhistory.com/fuller-samuel/

"Samuel Fuller has been generally identified as the son of Robert Fuller, baptized on 20 January 1580/1 at Redenhall, Norfolk. The identification is based upon circumstantial evidence only: the fact that the names Samuel, Edward, and Ann occur within the same family; and the fact the father is identified as a butcher. Thomas Morton, writing in 1637, says that Samuel Fuller was the son of a butcher. The name Matthew also occurs in this Redenhall Fuller family, and Samuel’s brother Edward had a son Matthew.

Samuel Fuller's 1613 Leiden marriage record indicates he had been formerly married to Alice Glascock; nothing is known of his first wife beyond her name. The name Alice Glascock is found most commonly in Essex, England. His second wife, Agnes Carpenter, was the daughter of Alexander Carpenter.  She was baptized at Wrington, Somerset, on 16 December 1593. His third wife, Bridget Lee, was accompanied by her mother Josephine Lee at her marriage, and also had a brother Samuel Lee living in Leiden.

Samuel Fuller came on the Mayflower in 1620, leaving behind his wife Bridget in Leiden to be sent for later. She would come to Plymouth on the ship Anne in 1623. He was the Colony's doctor, surgeon, and was a church deacon. His wife Bridget may have been the church's deaconess. Samuel Fuller spent time helping the sick at Neumkeag (now Salem) in 1629. He himself became sick in the autumn of 1633, and died, as did a number of other Plymouth residents."

Also: Edward Fuller has been generally identified as the son of Robert and Sara (Dunkhorn) Fuller, baptized on 4 September 1575 at Redenhall, Norfolk. Thomas Morton, writing in 1637, says that Samuel Fuller (brother of Edward Fuller) was the son of a butcher. The name Matthew also occurs in this Redenhall Fuller family. 

The name of Edward Fuller's wife has not been discovered. In James Savage's Genealogical Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England (1860-1862), Edward Fuller's wife was given as "Ann". However, there are no American or English records which give her name. I suspect James Savage may have made a simple typographical error: Mayflower passenger Edward Tilley had a wife Ann; or perhaps he was thinking of their sister Ann Fuller. Nonetheless, numerous sources published after 1860 have utilized Savage's Genealogical Dictionary, and so the identification of Ann can be found in numerous other books and online resources.

Very little is known about Edward Fuller. What is known is that he, his wife, and his son Samuel came on the Mayflower in 1620 to Plymouth.  An older brother, Matthew, had stayed behind, and came to America later.

by Nancy Morrissey G2G6 Mach 1 (11.9k points)
I’ve been looking at wills and I wonder whether they might have been from Pulham.

The only Matthew I found was the son of John not Edward.

Regards,

Ann
All the evidence suggest Matthew was Edward's nephew not his son but it's hard to change people's minds once a "fact" has appeared in respected books.
Please see my answer (below) to the original post.  Y-DNA shows a genetic mutation in Matthew's line that makes him closer kin to Robert Fuller of Rehoboth than to Edward.  Those of us descended from Capt. Matthew are simply going to have to get used to the notion that we're not direct descendants of Mayflower passenger Edward.  There are other theories of Matthew's origins that are intriguing, but we are going to have to wait for the Mayflower DNA experts to publish their latest conclusions before we can intelligently assess which theory, if any, holds water.

The DNA is an exciting development! The arguments that Matthew was the son of Edward are just so weak that it's hard to understand how they became established. I should have written that all the evidence suggests that he was Edward's nephew or cousin. I just wanted to emphasize that I didn't believe Matthew was Edward's son rather than insist on the nephew theory.

+6 votes
While the Fullers remain a persistent challenge, one thing we do now know from Y-DNA evidence is that Capt. Matthew Fuller (Fuller-117), my ancestor, was _not_ a son of Mayflower passenger Edward Fuller.  (This is going to require a significant adjustment by the General Society of Mayflower Descendants.) He is more closely related, in descent, to Robert Fuller of Rehoboth (Fuller-682): see https://mayflowerdna.org/wiki/index.php/Fuller_(Y-DNA), "Paper Trail", First Generation (last item).

Giles Fuller (Fuller-18367), a son of Roger Fuller, claimed that his contemporary Capt. Matthew Fuller was his closest kin in both old and New England.  Sorting out the relationships among Roger, Robert of Rehoboth, Capt. Matthew, and Edward is a work in progress; more analysis from the DNA experts is anticipated to be published shortly.
by Christopher Childs G2G6 Mach 1 (16.4k points)
Robert Fuller ((Fuller-683) supposedly from Southampton, if he is related to Matthew then either he was from Norfolk or Matthew was from Hampshire area. There is a Matthew Fuller baptised in Hampshire in 1602.

Where is the evidence that the Fullers were from Redenhall? They could have been from anywhere. Surely Hampshire origin might be more likely. Did they make depositions stating they were from Norfolk?.

Ann
Ann, as you may already be aware, that's exactly the question with which Bruce Campbell MacGunnigle began his (somewhat-famous) 1985 article in ''The American Genealogist'' (TAG Vol. 61, p. 194, https://www.americanancestors.org/DB283/i/12790/194/0 for those with a subscription to NEHGS).  An answer is at least implied, I would say, in MacGunnigle's tracing of Roger Fuller, father of Giles, to Topcroft, Norfolk... just a few miles from Redenhall, where Fullers are found whose names _appear_ to match up with Edward & kin.  (And a Roger Fuller – a son of John – was even christened at Redenhall on 19 Oct. 1572 who, MacGunnigle suggests, is likely the same fellow.)

As noted in my recent comment on the profile of Robert Fuller of Rehoboth (Fuller-683), the Southampton origin shown for him is not sourced, and appears to me to have come from someone's belief that Southampton is where he sailed from... but even that is not a certain fact.

My guess is that the whole geographic question _may_ be reopened now that the DNA results show the actual genetic relationships.  But we'll have to wait and see what the Mayflower DNA folks are going to add to the picture... and see what response is forthcoming from the good folk of the Mayflower Society.
I don’t have access to the American Ancestors page so no, I was unaware of that debate. Fuller is such a common name so unless there was some sort of deposition to say they had come from Norfolk it’s supposition to say they did so I wondered if there was any evidence anywhere.

You may just have to wait for the DNA.

Ann

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